Another question for breeders! Weight?????.
Submitted by CathyandAudrey on January 15, 2011 - 1:07pmThis question has come up in several places lately, and I think it is a very difficult thing for many bulldog owners to determine.
What guidelines are there to really determine if a bulldog is at an ideal weight? Even my vet has a hard time with it, because he says he's never really seen a bulldog besides Audrey that has an actual waistline (when viewed from above).
When you consider how critical a healthy weight is for their joints and heart, and to help them tolerate exercise, it is so important to make sure they are not too heavy.
When I asked before about Audrey, since I am always concerned about her weight, I think it was Deb that brought up a very good point that weight and substance and not one and the same.
Since bulldogs are "supposed" to have a massive chest/ribcage/brisket it seems to me like many people assume that ALL bulldogs SHOULD be very thick through their body. But there is a BIG difference in a dog that is thick because of it's bone structure and a dog that's thick because it is grossly overweight.
So how can we as bulldog owners really tell?
I read one time and I could never find it again that you should be able to clearly SEE the last rib on a bulldog. Is this true?
I just weighed Audrey and she is now 38 pounds. I am NOT CONCERNED about the number, but about her health. I thought she looked really good at 41 pounds, and I suppose 3 pounds is not that big of a deal, but I want her with me for as L O N G as possible and have always heard that it is better to be a bit too thin than a bit too heavy. I can kinda see her last rib, it is not a sharp defined outline but it is unmistakeable where her ribcage ends. She does have a really nicely defined waistline if you look down on her from above. So how do I know for sure that this is her ideal weight??
Cathy and Audrey 
This is a great question as I
This is a great question as I am constantly looking at my pup to see if he looks over or underweight. I have to agreed from reading that it is better to be a little thin than a little overweight. I was also told that the last rib should be clearly visible on a bulldog. I think alot of the time if you see a dog at an ideal weight and condition most people would think it's too thin when it's actually not.
Is this the discussion thread?
http://www.bulldogsworld.com/f/bulldog-medical-health/speaking-weight
From how you describe your girl, she sounds like she is at a good weight for her.
Every dog is different though. I have a 4 y/o Champion bitch that looks good to me at 47 pounds but was shown at about 51 pounds. I have a 2 y/o male that I've struggled to get weight onto to show him (he is a picky eater) and finally he is filling out. But he is a BIG BOY and he looks great, not overweight, at 67/68 pounds. Most of the dogs I've shown and finished are in the 57/58 pound range and the bitches are 53/56. I would like to bring down the size of my dogs, but also realize it is tough to get enough bone and body substance on a mature dog that only weighs 40 & 50 pounds. There are those show people that feel a smaller dog is better than a larger dog just because it is smaller. But to that I would mention that balance (proportion & symmetry) are important too. In the Bulldog Standard 3 points are assigned to size, while 5 points are assigned to proportion & symmetry.
On weight of puppies, I think unless an owner grossly overfeeds or almost starves a puppy, a pup will keep a good weight by themselves, especially if they are active.
yes that was the thread
but I am asking for visual guides for bulldog owners to be able to tell if their dogs are at a good weight for their frame. There is too much variations in size and bone structure to have numbers really mean anything.
When you said "I would like to bring down the size of my dogs, but also realize it is tough to get enough bone and body substance on a mature dog that only weighs 40 & 50 pounds." Are you saying you would like to breed for smaller dogs? I really am clueless when it comes to genetics and breeding and which characteristics are likely to be passed from parent to offspring, so I do not understand why it would be difficult to have enough substance and bone on a smaller dog. I am not being flippant, I honestly have no comprehension of genetics.
I think I am misunderstanding what "substance" is. I thought substance was bone structure, body frame. Not something that could be manipulated by feeding or exercise but more genetically determined. And not dependant on overall size. I have the understanding that if a bulldog lacks substance to feed it more is simply adding more fat to it's body. Again, I am not trying to be flippant, I just don't think I am quite understanding what substance is.
"There are those show people that feel a smaller dog is better than a larger dog just because it is smaller. But to that I would mention that balance (proportion & symmetry) are important too." I always thought the overall size of the dog was far less important than the shape, and balance. And if someone who has never seen a dog show just reads the bulldog standard, it does say a bulldog should be only 40 pounds for females and 50 pounds for males. This is very confusing to people like me, who see a lot of champion bulldogs that are clearly much bigger than that.
"In the Bulldog Standard 3 points are assigned to size, while 5 points are assigned to proportion & symmetry" Ahhh.....part of the above mentioned confusion explained :-)
The point of my question was to get some good visual guides for the average bulldog owner to be able to tell if their dog is at a good weight for their frame. Numbers don't have practical meaning. I looked at the body condition score charts that vets use and the 'ideal' they show is on a dog with a lab type body and no bulldog is going to look like that. I explained in detail in a post below, and I would GREATLY appreciate your help and input!
Thanks for your help!
Cathy and Audrey
Hi Cathy
I have never heard of "being able to see the last rib" as a guideline. I don't think that would make any sense. I do often hear that you should be able to feel the ribs but not see them.
As far as visuals, you often hear about the Bulldogs distinctive pear shape. When you stand over your dog, you should be able to see the point where after the rib cage ends the waist is noticeable smaller. The bulldog shouldn't be a tube. But, if a dog is really short backed, you may not see the pear so much and it doesn't mean the dog is over weight.
As you look at the dog from the side, you would see a tuck up on a fit dog. The area after the rib cage should curve up not continue on.
As far as substance and weight, two different things. A male can be 53 lbs and have a lot of substance and a male can be 65 and lack substance. To me substance means heavy bone, spring of rib, and a nice deep brisket.
Hope that helps answer some of your questions.
Thank you SO MUCH!
Yes, that was exactly what I was looking for!
I think Audrey is at a good weight. I also think that her back is a bit long, which is why she seems much thinner than the pictures I see. I was always concerned that she was too thin, even though I can't see her ribs and it's not real easy to feel them. I could tell there was something different about her but it wasn't until short backed was mentioned (and a picture shown) that it made sense to me that she seems to be just the opposite of that.
She has more space after her ribcage, and especially when looking at her from above you can see it. And she does not have good substance which make her look even thinner. But I don't want to put more fat on her than she needs.
sorry for the cell pics, I don't have a good camera. Everytime I look at pics of Audrey I think the pics do NOT really look like her. In person she looks much 'beefier'. For some reason the pics make her look even thinner.
if you look at her from above she looks real thin. That area that's between her last rib and where her waist starts is where she looks longer than other bulldogs I've seen pictures of.
but when you look at her from the side it looks very different, she doesn't look so thin.
she was so NOT thrilled about having her picture taken....
Cathy and Audrey
Weight really is just a number
Bulldogs vary so greatly in height, length and mass that is hard to pin down a certain number for weight. My boy Trace normally weighs about 63 lbs. But, since I am showing him, I have to keep his weight up so he fills out. He looks really good at about 68-70 lbs. When I am no longer showing him, I won't try to keep the weight on him. But, even with the extra weight, he is not overweight. You can still feel his ribs and he still has a defined waistline. Whenever I mention his weight to my Vet, he always tells me Trace is "perfect". Of course, some dogs would be very overweight at Trace's current weight but, it's just right for his body size and mass.
Now, on the other end of the spectrum, I have Morgan who is a very small girl and weighs about 40 lbs. Morgan has a very wide chest and a small waist but she has a VERY short back. I think her ideal weight is about 36 lbs. As she has aged, she has gained a few pounds.
Here's a side pic of Morgan
Trace from the side
yes!
That is what I am asking! I KNOW the number means nothing really. That's why I want to know what to LOOK for.
Is it true that you should be able to see the last rib? Does this mean literally, like you can actually SEE the rib bone? Or just that you should be able to see the outline of the last rib to define the ribcage?
They have such loose skin it is hard to feel ribs. This makes me wonder if Audrey has too much of a fat layer over her ribcage, because I can not easily feel them. Her spine I can easily feel, but the skin just wiggles over her ribs.
The "filling out" is confusing to me. The way I understand it it is simply adding more fat to their frame. Which I am not questioning for a show dog. Audrey is definitley not a show dog, so I want to make sure she is at a healthy weight for her frame. Most everything says that the fat layer over their ribs should be absolutely minimal for hip, joint, and heart health, and for longevity. Since numbers don't mean anything it would be much more helpful to have some visual guidelines. I found the body condition scoring charts published by vet colleges, and the dogs they use as examples when viewed from the side or the top do not have a bulldog shape, they use the typical lab-type dog body. How does that translate to bulldogs?
A bulldogs ribcage is SO BIG compared to the dogs in the charts. For those dogs it is quite a sharp incline from end of rib to waist(Side view). A bulldog is very round because of the shape of their ribs, even emaciated they would not have that sharp incline. So what is the visual guide for a bulldog? This is where that last rib question comes from. Since a better conformed bulldogs' ribcage/brisket is going to be quite large and round (This is what I have been thinking subtance is-the actual bone structure) all bulldog owners cannot just assume that their bulldog WILL have a rounded large ribcage also. If the dog is not showing then to add that much extra fat to make them appear more rounded when they do not have the bone structure to be that rounded naturally can't be good for their longterm health.
When viewed form the top the dogs in the charts have a much longer distance from ribcage to waist(longer backs) so it is much thinner. Again even an emaciated bulldog would not have such a long thin line like the pictured dogs. So how much of a top veiw waist should a bulldog really have? Since their ribs are much fuller than most dogs, to get a small waist there would be quite a noticeable indent from end of ribs to waist. It is not real common the see pictures of bulldogs from the top, so it's hard to have anything to compare them to.
I am going to try to get pictures of Audrey. She is normally such a well behaved dog, but the second the camera comes out for some reason she hates to be still.
And THANK YOU so much for helping!
Cathy and Audrey
I've never heard that you should be able to see the last rib
I don't think you should see any of the ribs. But, you should be able to feel the ribs. On an overweight dog you can feel nothing but a heavy layer of fat in the rib cage area.
I think the waistline depends a lot on length of back. A dog with a shorter back probably won't have as small of waist as a dog with a little longer back. I see that in my own dogs. I have 3 bitches and they are all very different in size, length and build. They are all "pets" so I don't really worry much about their weight except to try to keep them from getting too heavy.
Thanks!
I have not been able to find the last rib thing again, so I am not going to keep trying.
My goal is to not allow Audrey to get too heavy also, but since she is my first bulldog and she has a much different shape than my other dogs it is more challenging for me.
I think I understand now though and she is at a good weight, thanks for your help!
Cathy and Audrey
Audry looks great
I see her nice tuck up. She looks to be at a healthy weight. She's a pretty feminine girl.
Thanks Amy!
I appreciate your help!
Cathy and Audrey
I think Audrey looks great in
I think Audrey looks great in those pictures.