Dats ok! Like I said the passion for the breed can make for very vehement people! I hope our new friend and his granddaughter do some research together and get in contact with Helen D and others in the NJ area, and become acquainted with the breed, before compounding their heartache. There, maybe I got that out, without tripping over my own tongue/fingers, or stepping on others toes.

Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

I was wishing I could reel my response back in after I posted...I know you didn't mean it like I took it...that was my very tired brain reading...and talking.

Cathy Miller

My life is full of bull.

http://www.marshillbulldogs.com
http://www.bulldogclubofmetropolitanatlanta.com

a champion bitch here, and she is #43. She is not considered a "mini bulldog" She is a standard sized girl. No such thing as a mini bulldog.

Bella's MOM was small but her DAD was a much larger bulldog. he was maybe 60 pounds..a big boy.. her MOM was tiny like Bella. all the littermates are larger then Bella was too..
hard to tell how big they will be as puppies..and so on.
some surprise you.

My pug here is very tiny. she is less then 14 pounds. all of her sibblings are over 20 pounds..and her parents are both well over 20 pounds at full maturity.
so nobody knows what happened here..likely in her background somewhere in the genetics.
she was NOT the runt of her litter either.......just tiny.

goodluck in finding a new puppy..
there are lots of quality breeders where you are
I did a search on google
start reading tons of info out there on bulldogs and talk to as many breeders as you can...and get as much info as you can.
look for the guarantees and also that the pup is registered.
read over the contract very closely before making a decision ..

Breeders Protect each other.

I think that is a cop out. B/cause your grandaughter didn't do the "leg" work and made an "Impulse" buy, purchasing from a breeder she didn't thouroughly check out. There is no such thing as a Mini bulldog. That should have been the first red flag. There ARE reputable breeders in Jersey. If you even do a google search , out of the first 7 results is a website called "the bulldog Club of America"....where there is a breeder referral page. And I will tell you that from the calls and emails that I have had for pups, I refer to reputable people that I know have healthy pups.

IMO if you don't have the time to check out the breeder, and drive to their place to check out mom and dad, place you are getting them from, then maybe she isn't ready for any dog, that and being a freshman in college. Doing the leg work and research is a SMALL part of having a bulldog. If the dog gets sick and the best vet is 200 miles away, are you not going to take them b/cause it is going to be a day trip??? I will tell you I have taken a couple of my dogs when sick to one vet that is 2 hrs from me, and another one that is 4 hrs from me...ONE WAY. As far as distance, I have a family drive from NC (I am in Ohio)to check my dogs out.

if you are shipping a dog to someone without meeting them in person as well as them taking the time to go on site to ensure you are an ethical breeder how is that ok? If they are wanting a pup badly enough they should make the effort to come to you.

Again. Only my opinion and not an attack on you. I just know that if the good breeders out there adhered to this policy we would have a lot less mill dogs being shipped to folks because they may think this is the "norm"


MidAtlantic Bulldog Rescue | www.midatlanticbulldogrescue.com
A 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization

I believe that NJ has a puppy lemon law and I have no clue how that works but if you do live in NJ research this, your daughter might be able to get her money back. Although it might be a law where the puppy was shipped out of, I have no clue. Just thought to throw it out there.

Shelley - Sophie N Angels Mocha & Stella

Sorry if I made it sound like I was directing it at anyone on here! I was referring to the irresponsible breeders, especially those from Eastern Europe, that reportedly have some pretty spartan methods of transporting their dogs to this country. I was told that irresponsible breeder was the pc way of saying puppymiller. Again, sorry if I typed abit askew. Passion for the breed makes me stupid at times.

Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

but i would be more concerned about your grand daughter learning and knowing more about the breed right now... if she doesnt have any more money to go after this guy, how will she be able to handle it when the puppy gets sick or need surgery. I got my bully from a rescue and even though she is considered small and in good condition ... I have already spent about $4000 in the last 11 months of owning her just on vet bills alone, not even for major surgery or anything like that! we are also taking about $50 bags of dog food if your bully ends up allergic to grain, which it seems like many are!

If she is a student, will she have time to train this stubborn breed? I would have her look at all the costs/time involved before getting another. have you thought about rescuing a dog, they usually come potty trained and most are socialized already, that would be half the battle there!

Before anyone brings a bulldog home--puppy or rescue--these are questions you must ask yourself:

Who will take responsibility for the dog? If your daughter is a freshman in college, will the dog live at her parents' home, or with her at college?

Will the new owner have the time to socialize and exercise the dog?

Will the new owner be able to afford unexpected expenses--maybe a torn ACL from jumping during play, or costly-to-manage skin allergies, or the ER trip because something got swallowed?

Can the new owner afford the everyday necessities, such as premium food, joint supplements, vaccinations, monthly heartworm preventative, appropriate toys, safe "clean up" materials? Plus a good basic obedience class?

Has the new owner read what bulldogs should NOT have, such as rawhides, edible chews, pig's ears and cow's hooves, and does he or she know why they should not have them?

Does he or she know that bulldogs cannot swim? Does he or she know what a tail pocket is, and why it needs to be cleaned?

Expect a responsible breeder to ask these questions of you, in addition to asking for a vet reference. I hope you will be able to answer them positively. Good luck!

I have sold pups to people that fly in to get them and fly back with them as carry on, fly in, rent a car and drive back, met people halfway when they have long drives, arranged for folks to take pups to new owners on the way to shows, arranged for flight attendents to take them in the cabin, etc.

Put them in a box and ship them UPS????? Good grief. Where did that attack come from?

Cathy Miller

My life is full of bull.

http://www.marshillbulldogs.com
http://www.bulldogclubofmetropolitanatlanta.com

I agree with many things you say but have to disagree with you on this point. I researched shipping a puppy very, very thoroughly and concluded that it is okay under certain, tho not all, circumstances.





ALL PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN BY ME ARE MY PROPERTY, ARE COPYRIGHTED UNDER FEDERAL LAW, AND CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY PURPOSE WITHOUT MY WRITTEN PERMISSION. ANY INCOME MADE OFF OF MY PHOTOS AT ANY TIME MUST BE IMMEDIATELY REMITTED TO ME.






And click here for puppy photos of Boo & Clovis:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/glandry113

I think they also use puppy nanny's... we use a puppy nanny with our puppies... We also have a pretty good relationship with our buyers before our puppies ever leave our house.


Kelly and The Carverbullies

As I would take a 2 year old human child, put them in a box, and call UPS... after what goes into breeding, and producing, and raising these precious babies. NO WAY. Pretty big red flag. But me thinks we have beaten the horse dead with the red flags. I bet you have alot more answers than you thought possible. Just means we all love this breed.

Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

I think we will disagree about this.


MidAtlantic Bulldog Rescue | www.midatlanticbulldogrescue.com
A 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization

I personally know of a breeder within 30 minutes of where you live and she is extremely ethical


MidAtlantic Bulldog Rescue | www.midatlanticbulldogrescue.com
A 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization

you cannot put this "person" in the category of breeder in my opinion. There are good breeders and please email me privately if you would like some information. This is someone producing puppies and selling them to uneducated people that buy them on the internet. The demand is obviously there because folks like your grand daughter have purchased.

Why not suggest she try to adopt from a rescue organization? I think this is a much better option and you would also be giving back to the breed and helping.

There is no excuse for sick puppies period. However you must be aware that any further purchases from people over the internet, overseas or from a pet store are supporting the industry. Please tell your granddaughter to do her research the next time around. Families and dogs suffer.


MidAtlantic Bulldog Rescue | www.midatlanticbulldogrescue.com
A 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization

Thank you Pat. Your Bella is beautiful and I wish you many loving years with her.

Thank you for your sympathy. I should have said "video" of the puppy, not picture and the puppy she received looked just like the one in the video.

what I consider small...
according to the standards is not small..
the standard if 40 pounds for females and 50 pounds or so for males..
give or take a few pounds
so your grand daughter is just looking for a standard size bulldog..not really a mini..

here is a pic of Bella and she is not big

[IMG][/IMG]


and

[IMG][/IMG]

here is Bella and Gus
Gus is 52 pounds

[IMG][/IMG]

I'm not sure what my granddaughter thought was small, but I thought she said 35 to 40lbs.

As you have learned there is no such thing as a "mini" bulldog.

There is something that your grand-daughter needs to be careful about with purchasing a puppy online that hasn't been mentioned. You said that she saw the pup's picture and fell in love. Please make her aware that people steal pictures from all different sites to put on their web site and say the pup is theirs. It has happened to people from this site. She might wind up with a pup that looks nothing like the one she thought she was getting.

On the main page of this web site is a link to breeders all across the US. There are a quite a few listed for New Jersey and New York.

I also suggest she go to a dog show where she can meet breeders and see their dogs. The next show I know coming up is in Long Island at the Nassau Colisuem. It is the weekend of the Feb 13-14. Also the Westminister in NYC is February 15. It might be a 2-3 hour trip but to me well worth the investment of time. This way she will not have to undergo the heartbreak of receiving a sick puppy again.

For more info on the show in February go tohttp://www.infodog.com/clubs/2010055801.HTM
There are also shows coming up in April in Pa which you can find on the same site under show info- search by state.

Good luck to you both.

Sue Jacobsen
http://www.LongIslandBulldogRescue.org


http://www.flickr.com/photos/suebert2

nm

Lynn King CPDT

Consumer complaint sites like the Squeaky Wheel log complaints about pets as well.

Cathy Miller

My life is full of bull.

http://www.marshillbulldogs.com
http://www.bulldogclubofmetropolitanatlanta.com

this site is an excellent place to start..
lots of great people on here to help your granddaughter

Thank you Kathy!

http://www.frenchbulldogclub.org

Cathy Miller

My life is full of bull.

http://www.marshillbulldogs.com
http://www.bulldogclubofmetropolitanatlanta.com

there are lots of great books out there on english bulldogs and that is a great place to start.
dog fancy mags are available in mag shops and such too
there is a dogs in canada book here..must be one similar on the US as well.
reading up on the english bulldog is very important..
the net is full of info on english bulldogs and such too

knowledge is power when it comes to buying an english bulldog

call some local breeders..
do a search on google for your area and bulldog puppies..
see what you find there too

What site are you taling about?

Thank you for your sympathy, for your advice and for answering this post. Not sure my granddaughter did all this but she saw the puppy on line and loved it.

While many reputable breeders are reluctant to "post" information about questionable breeders due to concerns regarding lawsuits or retaliation, if you make phone calls to show breeders from the area, you will often get mild warnings such as: "be very careful to get everything in writing when dealing with xyz kennel" or "ask lots of questions of their vet about their breeding practices" or "be sure to ask about any concerns you might have about spina bifida in the breed if you do business with xyz." Often people cannot be direct, but they can get their point across.

I'm so sorry your granddaughter has gone through this. I'm sure her heart hurts more than her wallet.

Just tell her that most people that sell "mini-bulldogs" are not being honest anyway. I've seen pups from small parents end up as huge adults. She'll stand her best chance of a healthy pup if she buys from a show breeder who breeds for standard size (which, in the mind of many, is a small bulldog anyway) My most recent Champion female weighs 44 lbs. I wish y'all luck in the search for another puppy.



Cathy Miller

My life is full of bull.

http://www.marshillbulldogs.com
http://www.bulldogclubofmetropolitanatlanta.com

i think...if you cant see where the dog lives...and meet its parents etc...then dont purchase it...even if you do find/pay for it online.


also...if you don't have time to take a day trip (or even an overnight) to insure the well being and potential health and future of your pup and meet the breeders etc....then do you really have time for a puppy to begin with? its a small price to pay when it comes to a breed that can so easily be bred improperly and that people tend to take advantage of so often, as far as selling unhealthy pups etc.

also, i have certainly of a handful of reputable breeders in jersey...

Thank you Kathy. You have a beautiful puppy there.

We would have to travel a couple of hundred miles one way to visit a breeder. Then inspect the premises, take the pup to the vet, etc. etc. That could involve a few days but your right, that's the right way to do it. Unfortunately, my granddaughter is a freshman in college and wouldn't have the time right now. If the laws were designed to protect the "buyer" instead of the "seller" this wouldn't be necessary.

By the way, what is a "French Bulldog" and are there sites that show this breed?

Thanks again for the advice and suggestions.

I have what I consider to be a small bulldog
but what size are you talking about?
just kinda curious
when you say small..what is small??

I will respond back to you about my smaller bulldog ..

if you find it is very difficult to find information, that's a big red flag to look elsewhere. You should be able to easily find their dogs, show dogs' winnings are recorded online. If you get the potential puppy's pedigree and you cannot find any of the dogs through a simple google search, that is another big red flag. If you knowingly and willingly purchase a puppy that is listed as a breed that is NOT akc recognizable, then you should not be too surprised when that breeder doesn't have a presence in the dog world. This forum is for information on the breed, and not for negative comments about specific breeders. That can turn very ugly very fast and would ruin the atmosphere of support and information. It does not allow positive comments about specific breeders either, unless they are on their approved breeders list. This particular forum is just not the place to go if you are looking for information on specific breeders. The webmaster protects the sanctity of the forum, to keep it available for everyone seeking information and comraderie about all things bulldog. Your granddaughter did suffer a terrible loss, both financial and emotional. It was criminal and cruel. If she is still interested in an english bulldog, and would like to get one from a reputable breeder, then I would highly recommend she look to her local kennel club, or BCA branch.

Cathy
when she first came home

that was the first huge red flag. They are generally mixes with a Bulldog and there is no guarantee of their size, many grow to be the same size as the standard Bulldog.

First thing for your granddaughter to do, is to come to a site like this, ask questions and lots of them. People on this board will be honest with her and help her to find a nice sound healthy pup. So, when she is ready, send her here.



Lynn King CPDT

When there are no breeders within a few hundred miles, its pretty difficult to do. We are now aware, at least I am, there is no such thing as a "mini" English Bulldog. There is no reason for a "runt" or any other puppy to be sent as sick as this one was. If we were allowed to post the breeders name on these websites we could put a dent and maybe the end in unscrupulous breeders. Unfortunately, the money's too great. But that is what my granddaughter wanted, a smaller version of the dog, and still wants.

Thank you very much for the information and answering my post.

I know there are QUITE a few... I'm sorry this happened to your grand daughter, but there are many reputable bulldog breeders here in New England, tri-state, east coast within driving range. I hope she has better luck this time. She definitely can refer to the breeder list here, as well as attend local AKC shows to meet breeders. There are MANY.

And I hope she perhaps looks into a French Bulldog, which is smaller than an English. There is no such thing as a Mini Bulldog and if any breeder tries to tell you/her that a pup will be small... they really have no way of knowing for sure.

Hard to do when there are no breeders within hundreds of miles of where you live. Breeders protect each other, thats how they stay in business.

Thank you for answering my post and your advice.

The guarantee says she will give my granddaughter a new puppy but will not pay any medical bills. The medical bill, between the veterinarian and the University of Pennsylvania veterinary hospital will be in the neighborhood of $3,000. And if she does get a new puppy from the same breeder, what guarantees do you have it won't happen again?

Thank you for your sympathy and for answering my post.

Thanks for your response. The mini English bulldog is just a smaller version of the English one and not recognized as one. There are papers to register with the AKC as an English Bulldog. The pup was shipped by plane. It is easy to say "research the breeder" but difficult to do. Especially if you live in South Jersey and the breeder lives in Tallmadge, Ohio. One breeder will not comment on another breeder, in fact they sell for one another. Most of these forums will not post your comments if you mention a breeder you feel is questionable, because our society is litigious. I know, I've tried. The law protects them, not you. In order for my granddaughter to recover her costs, approximately $5,000, she will need to spend another 1 or two thousand to sue the breeder. She can just go bankrupt and start over again in 6 months under a different name. What happened to my granddaughter and the puppy was criminal and cruel but she doesn't have the resources to do anything about it with having to pay college tuition. But, she does want another small, English Bulldog.

I see nothing wrong with purchasing a dog on the internet. But one must do thier homework. As with any breed, check referances. What clubs do they belong to? In the case of Bulldogs, are they BCA members? Local Bulldog Club Members? These people have signed an agreement to adhere to ethical breeding guidelines set forth by thier clubs.
Also, lots of phone communication!!!! Talk with them several times on the phone. Red flags are easy to detect in ones answes over the phone? ie if they talk about how they have many liters and sound more like a puppy mill than a responsible breeder. End it there. Always go with yor gut.
Ask alot of questions? Ask for a copy of the dogs pedigree. Ask for pictures of both parents. Contact stud owner i stud is not owned by them. Ask if they have particpated in any health testing. Do they show thier dogs, or do they just breed to breed (is it profit oriented- if so, end it there!)

I have purchased dogs online. And they were from reputable BCA members with no problems. I am also on the flip side and have sold dogs online. I am just as cautious with those people and i require someone to fly to my home. It requirs me the opportunity to meet them in person as well as my dogs. I want to build lifelong relationships with them so that i can assure them i am there for the life of the dog should any problems ever arise.

I hope this all helps.
I am sorry this happened to your grandaugther

Rhiann @ Butlerbullz

that your son, would have had the breeder on hand during the exam...as I would never let a pup go to a new home, without exchange of money. Although a grace period to have teh dog examined by buyers vet, would be ideal and what most reputable breeders do.

It is important to buy from someone reputable. And I always encourage those interested in the breed to go to a couple bulldog shows, talk with the breeders and exhibitors. The bulldog world is very small, and those that aren't on the up and up, usually reputable breeders will steer clear of IMO.

How can you prevent it from happening again? First make sure you do a lot of reading about the breed. A 'mini' bulldog is not a recognized breed, and I wouldn't trust anyone selling them. Second, you want a breeder who is really willing to talk to you, educate you, let you see their dogs, and isn't only interested in your money. The breeder should give you the dogs pedigree, which you can easily check online. The breeder should offer you a health guarantee in writing that you can see BEFORE you buy a puppy. The breeder should have a health certifictae saying the puppy was checked out by their vet, and they should encourage you to have the puppy checked out soon after you bring it home. Bulldogs don't do well on planes, you should avoid flying your puppy. If the breeder will not allow you to come to them to pick up the puppy, something is wrong, walk away. Check with the BCA. And make sure you file a complaint against whomever your granddaughter bought that puppy from to hopefully steer other potential buyers away.

Cathy
when she first came home

or from a breeder that ships
OR from a puppy store!!!

There also is no such thing as a MINI english bulldog. It's fancy for "runt"


MidAtlantic Bulldog Rescue | www.midatlanticbulldogrescue.com
A 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization

Sorry to hear you got the internet scam lesson. It is often painful and expensive. One resource you could have her try is to go to the BCA website and check out the breeder referral. At least with that, you know that they are known by their peers and are for some part held accountable for their actions, by the quantification of their reputations.
We to had the "oppurtunity" to purchase an internet puppy. My son, however did alot of "qualifying" of the "breeder", and the deal fell apart. Mainly due to the fact that he told the guy, that he would come to his home and pick up the puppy, provided that he could have the puppy examined by a vet of my sons choosing. Then and only then, would money change hands. The scammer told my son that he was being too difficult and to forget it.
Final thought? Purchase a puppy from a local breeder, with a known reputation. Face to face contact. Health Guarantee in writing.


Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

Has she contacted the breeder? Was there any health guarantee, etc.?

There's a lot of great info on the main page of BDW here about Puppy Mills, Mini Bulldogs, Choosing a Puppy, etc. Hope you will find it helpful.
Best Wishes.

if it was a breeder that I knew well online..I would still go and pick up the puppy.

both of my bullies came from show breeders. they are not show...pet quality but that is fine..that is what I wanted.
I went and met both breeders...and felt very good about this. seen how the bulldogs were in the family ...if they were backyard breeders, if they gave a care about the breed and so on. I was just as fussy with the breeder as I was with the puppy. the first 8 weeks are very very important.

My pugs came from a show pug breeder as well. the breeder did a home visit before she would even sell a pup. then I went to her house and met her dogs as well. then she delivered the puppy and stayed for awhile to make sure that the pup settled in and would be fine..likely checking up on me too..lol but that is besides the point..that is fine. nothing to hide.

the second pug was a little different. the pup was older..and so on. but she did deliver the pug to make sure that she would fit in and that the house was ok for a puppy again and so on.

the last one from her was a rescue pug. there was a few long phone calls to see how he would fit in the house here. I agreed to foster him for her......but in the end ended up keeping him. he was 6 months old. I did not meet Max until she delivered Max to me...I fell in love with him the moment he got here. he was very abused but a great looking dog.
I still hear from the pug breeder all the time..we get along really well. so the relationship continued long after the puppies.. I like that. if I have a an issue I know I can always call her and get help with it.

sorry for your Granddaughers bulldog
not sure there is such a thing as a mini bulldog.. was the dog registered?? akc?? no guarantee?? was the pug shipped by plane?? those kind of questions...are big big ones..to make sure of FIRST. also make sure you research your breeder..you can guarantee a good breeder will research you...
make sure you get a registered bulldog and have a guarantee and try to find a breeder that is closer to you. research research and talk talk talk to the breeder

Is what you want and the breeder should be able to tell you is or if not the bitches are standard. I have a 38lb bitch most her puppies were very standard but a few were larger.

Go to thebca.org for a breeder referral

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.