Here's a conversation starter...does dominance between different species exist?
Bulldogs World Forum Archives
These archives contain a copy of the contents of the old Bulldogs World Forum for reference purposes.Posting is disabled in the archives.
Click here to visit the active Bulldog Forum
Here's a conversation starter...does dominance between different species exist?
Submitted by LindseyVincent on April 20, 2010 - 11:59pmI have been reading The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, and it is a very intriguing book. In the chapter on aggression, he explains that dominance does not occur between different species. It's true that rules can be established between them; however a 'pecking order' is usually established in members of the same species. Let's say a couple of hens are battling over which one is the dominant one. A fierce fight occurs, but it does not continue for a prolonged period of time and eventually both hens will come to respect one another once they 'know their place,' and the group is harmonious once again. Other species do not have to resort to fights to establish dominance, since fighting can be a major waste of time and it runs a huge risk of injury for all parties involved. The animals that do not resort to fights usually resolve tensions through performing rituals. Dawkins goes on to say that our thoughts of animals having a rigid hierarchy are completely wrong, and that the terms 'dominance,' 'alpha,' and 'hierarchy' are thrown around way too much when it comes to describing animal behavior, so the basic understandings of what these terms mean become skewed. This chapter really got me into thinking about dog training and I know I've heard many times that you should be 'the alpha' over your dog. If what Dawkins says is true, then that would mean that our dogs do not understand what we are doing if we are trying to 'dominate' them. What are your opinions on this topic? If dogs do have a hierarchy, then should humans try to be a part of it? Perhaps dogs that really follow a household's rules are not looking toward the human as the 'alpha,' but perhaps the dog views following the rules as a means to get what he/she really wants. Would you say that statement is true? Keep in mind that many trainers have varying viewpoints on this issue, and this can be a very complicated topic.
Just my thought
It seems to me that the animals have it right, it's the people that screw it up. Animals respect each other. How many people show true respect or loyality? People are loyal until something or someone new comes along. Dogs are loyal to a fault. Animals are not murderers, child molesters, or evil. Everyday you read in the news about another child being missing, and usually it is a family member that is responsible. Animals will fight to the death to protect their own, seems that trait is being more and more lost with each generation.
People were given dominion over the animals, and look how that has worked out. People are the dominate species, but that doesn't mean that we are doing a good job at the task. Animals dicipline their off spring with a firm hand. Look at how we are raising children in the "human" species. "Do what ever you want, get what you want, as long as you feel good, look good, and to hell with the responsibility or consequences of your actions." No repurcussions, no recriminations, and NO responsibility. Seems as if the animals are doing a better job.
Dogs are WAY smarter than we ever give them credit for being. The lessons they teach are free, no need to sign up for a class. Just sit and watch the interaction between some dogs, or a bunch of cats. They know what they are doing, and can relate any message without any words. We have been given the words, and we waste them.
Maybe dominance can lead to respect, but how far will one animal allow another to dominate until it has had enough and strikes back? What one dog sees as "dominance" another may see as "bullying". As with people, animals have their limits for tolerance. Push a bulldog too far, and you get "heels dug in stubborn"! The "limit" may not come out as aggression, but they get the point across.
Isn't dominance between species also known as the "food chain"?
Oh well, just my thoughts, on a very open discussion. No harm, no foul.
LOL!!! Good one! ;)
nm
Like between women and men??
Women are a different species, right? Okay, just kidding.
His take on things is an interesting point of view. Not sure about cross species, but within a species, it seems that mating rights have a lot to do with the motivating factor behind what at least on the surface appears to be dominance, tho it's obviously a lot more complicated than that. I'm guessing that animals who live in packs realize on some level that a pack has to have a leader or the pack would never be effective at what is the greatest advantage of living in packs, i.e., obtaining food.
And click here for puppy photos of Boo & Clovis:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/glandry113
Thanks! Animals are truly amazing aren't they?
Especially our dogs...
Certainly animals recognize their own species
and most certainly dogs recognize that we are not dogs. But, until they are taught how to treat us, they only know "dog" behavior.
Thats one of the great things about dogs, they seem willing to endure our endless mistakes. Think about it, a lot of body language is universal. Standing fully frontal, hard stare eye contact is pretty much understood by several species as threatening.
Lynn King CPDT
Quick question...
Would you say that dogs and/or other animals perhaps naturally know that we are not dogs; however, they assume that humans think and use the same language they do until they are taught differently? I know that before I started studying animal behavior in horses and dogs, I knew that they were a different species but I wrongly assumed that they automatically understood my body language. Perhaps dogs assume that we (and other animals) already know their language, and they tend to get a little confused over why we get mad at them for something they consider completely natural.
Amen
No, I have never believed in "dominating" my dogs, I really try to build a relationship based on cooperation. Yes, cooperating dogs do get what they want. There has to be someone in charge, regardless of the situation, thats why we have bosses, police, laws, parents, etc.,
Ive always been confused when people tell me that they "alpha" roll their dogs. I try very hard to convince my dogs that I am a different species and therefore, I need and want to be treated differently. So why would I think I should try to act like a dog, believe me, humans are not good at it.
Lynn King CPDT