As for breeding i think it is so importain to know your breeders and the stud dog. When a person ships for a dog that looks good in the ring or in the books how do you know about health issues. Some wonderful looking stud dogs are not healthy at all..

Vicky, Bosco, Bella & the Babies

That this are like concave "pockets" on either side of his trach i think-and if a dog struggles to breath sometimes the get stick out so instead of concave they are puffed out into the trachea making it again harder to breath.

I maybe have misunderstood but that was my understanding when he said it was a possibility and I asked what these were and why it would be a problem.

when I bred my female the first time to the stud from that famous kennel, they did not inquire on her health. They only wanted to see a copy of her pedigree first.

I am guilty of not checking those type of things on MoJo when we got him...shoot, when we got there the promised vet check never even existed..but yes we took him anyway...as everyone knows by now the conditions he in ....I could never have left him..
In the future should I someday every adopt another bullie..thanks to this board and all the educated ..and sharing that information folks here..would I be wiser...absolutely...!
As for breeding...I know one should never say never..but I never will...I don't have the knowledge to make sure all would be for the betterment of the breed...will both Cody and Mojo be neutured..yes.
...Cody because of the obvious..and MoJo...well as wonderful as I think he is..he is Cody's son...
..it makes me wonder with all the hundreds of pupsteres sweet Cody fathered in the last 5 years,
how many have his issues passed on to them..and how many of those are being breed?...ce

I've had two "litters".

Litter #1 ... I didn't know anything about screenings. Bred my female (who appeared to be in fine health) to a Bully in a famous kennel (cooled semen). Got 1 puppy and kept him. He's the one who ended up with the undescended testicle. He was neutered.

Litter #2 ... Took my female for evaluation prior to breeding again. All checked out fine, though I still didn't know enough to ask about specific screenings and I can't recall exactly what they looked for. I was using a different stud and hopeful any male puppy would not have Jackpot's problem (they didn't)... but Barkley ended up with the palate/trachea/allergy problem and Quigley got TOO DARN BIG!!

I've been contacted a number of times over the years by people who wanted to use my male(s) for stud. I've turned them down every time, explaining the reasons my males aren't being used for stud. These people don't care about health issues .... they just want a litter to sell.

I should have discussed the medical history/background of the sires in more detail, and pressed for a copy of an up-to-date medical evaluation on them.

Patti,
You certainly have come up with some great questions!!
I cannot answer this one as I have no experience with this at all. I do not breed and never will breed. I do not know enough to do it for the betterment of the Bulldog, and I know that I could not properly care for a litter of pups.
I am very interested to see how others who have had experience with this respond to your question.

Jane

Do you know if there is a set standard like so many mm trachea size in a set weight, age, or size of a pup that is good? Also, I know you know about adult trachea sizes, what is good, OK, and not good. Could you comment on that also. I would like to file the info in the file that has all of my tons of info from this site so I would have it in the future if needed. Also, does the Xray provide a good estimation of trachea size?

Thanks.

Boy, you are up early in Nevada.

I have tried to breed to the best of health studs
I have asked the breeders about the breathing problems of the studs and the background of the puppies I have purchased.

I probably should have had the xrays done on all the above but until recently I had not heard about doing this.
Another reason I stay on this board I've learned a lot from it and with that knowledge I pray I do no harm to the breed.

I had one litter that had one puppy with a heart problem you guys may remember and that litter all had limited reg and spray and neuter agreements and the bitch was spayed to stop it.

Sue, I'm sure that is the same thing. However, I am not familiar with them "rupturing"....The way it was described to me by by vet is that they are like little flaps that open and close with the breathing. When they have lost their elasticity (ruptured??) then that is what causes the additional problem with breathing, obstructing the airway.

n/m

They have a balloon that you expand with air with a syringe that is located near the bottom of the trach tube and goes around it on the outside to seal against the trachea so that air doesn't escape.

Patti, isn't this what they also refer to as larryngeal saccules? Many times, dogs with breathing problems will need saccules removed if once they are under for a surgery and it is discovered that they have opened. If they are not removed I think there is a chance they can rupture and possibly cause damage.

I remember when Sumo had his palate clipped, Dr Shaw mentioned the possibility that this may need to be done but we were lucky and his were fine. Possibly because he has a nice 7 1/2 trachea his breathing wasn't as strained as it would have been had he had a narrow trachea.

All I know is Annie's is a 9 and Jesse's is an 8! So we are ok!

Does this sound right? Trying to explain the best I can.....

They use a tube size that fits as best it can without causing tearing or extreme pressure to the trachea. Then, if need be, they expand the tube (with air?)until it fits snug inside the trachea. Trach tubes are either full or 1/2 sizes.

IE: the dog has a size 7 1/2 trach tube because that is what fits best, although they may need to expand it a bit to get a snugger fit. So for all intent and puropse, they will say the dog has a size 7 1/2 trachea. It could really be about a 7 3/4 (hey we'll take all we can get right) after all is said and done but they use the lower number since that is the size tube that was used.

Just showing a point that with some dogs, their trachea may actually be a bit larger than the
size of the tube that was used

They are like little saccules (sp?) down into the windpipe past the soft palate. They open and close with the air. However, if there has been stress on breathing, either by small trachea, palate, or pinched nares, their "elasticity" is gone, and instead of opening and closing, the "flaps" will just stay somewhat opening, causing a blocking of area, and noisy breathing. It is a different sound from a palate problem. Hard to describe, more of a "clicking" sound???

n/m

What are the ventricles? Where are they?

Thanks for the trachea info.

Dorsal does refer to the back, so near the spine.

say the dog is an adult, over 2 years:
if the trachea is small and everything else (palate, etc.) is normal, would the dog show breathing problems?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends, it can be on the smaller average size, and as long as he is not under undue stress, heat, activity, etc., you wouldn't know of a problem.

if the trachea is large and the palate is too long, would the dog show breathing problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, the palate problem in itself would present a problem, and noisy breather. Once that is taken care of, if the trachea is fine, then the dog will have no problems.

thanks patti. i really appreciate your answers & honesty. i'm still just a bit unclear on one point.

say the dog is an adult, over 2 years:
if the trachea is small and everything else (palate, etc.) is normal, would the dog show breathing problems?

if the trachea is large and the palate is too long, would the dog show breathing problems?

i'm just wondering as i don't really have any experience with a bad breather, other then the one dog i know from where i work...and you can clearly tell he has a problem when he gets excited.

liz

if the trachea narrows, would you be able to tell by the size tube being used? it may start off as an 8 but if it narrows to a 6 then would you only be able to use a tube size 6?
>>>>>>> The tube does not go down all the way. You can have the narrowing down further where it goes into the lungs. It is almost like having a kink in the hose. So, if the dog aspirates, or gets fluid down, or even gets a respiratory, it is hard for them to cough it up.

does the trachea grow as the dog ages? if so, how much?
>>>>>>>>The trachea would grow in size in the same relation as it was as a puppy, the same as the spacing on the ribs do.

what is the average trachea size? sue said 6-8 and that's what i've always heard as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I would say 6 is on the smaller size, for considering one to be really good, or larger it would be min. of 8, and up to 10 at least.

if a dog is a good breather at 2-3 years, would you assume the dog is fine or would the xray need to be taken?
>>>>>>>> Keep in mind there are three things that can effect a dog's breathing, the trachea size, the soft palate, and the vetricles. So, a dog can have a good trachea, but have problems with the palate of ventricles. On the other hand, a dog could have a great palate, no ventricle problems, but still not have the largest trachea. It might be average. But, just for myself, I'd like to know and see. Same as x-raying the spine for hemivertabraes and the hips.

what is the minimum trachea size that would be acceptabe to breed, provided the dog shows no breathing problems & is standard size?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy, this is getting into an idealistic world.....I would say a 7-8. But of course, say the dog has no problems, you know the parents are good, the trachea is a 6 (which I consider on the smaller size), but the bitch has a 9 or 10....well, here you go in hoping for the best.

Now, don't hold me to all this, I'm not a vet. It is just my experiences over the years, and advice and education from my vet.

It is upper, by the spine. I just asked John if he could remember the term...he came up with dorsol??? Duh....That is why I said I could get a better definition or wording from my vet. Again....if I looked at an x-ray, I could point it out to you...

Where do you measure between the 3rd and 4th rib? On it's side where the space is largest? Not near the sternum or the spine where the ribs connect? I really do not know.

if the trachea narrows, would you be able to tell by the size tube being used? it may start off as an 8 but if it narrows to a 6 then would you only be able to use a tube size 6?

does the trachea grow as the dog ages? if so, how much?

what is the average trachea size? sue said 6-8 and that's what i've always heard as well.

if a dog is a good breather at 2-3 years, would you assume the dog is fine or would the xray need to be taken?

what is the minimum trachea size that would be acceptabe to breed, provided the dog shows no breathing problems & is standard size?

thanks patti!!

liz

My vet is on vacation for a week....Gawd, I'd NEVER let him go for a month!!! Anyway, if he was here, I'd get the proper medical terms for the rib spacing/area. But hope how I explained it helps.

First, you don't have to sedate a dog to x-ray their trachea. Yes, I have had many 8 week old puppies tracheas x-rayed, for my own knowledge and for decisions on who I would keep.

As Sue said, you won't necessarily know as a puppy if there is a small trachea, they can be pretty active. But, there are the really severe cases where with a puppy you will know because of lack of energy. Usually you'll know with a puppy because if it gets a respiratory, it just can't get rid of it. HOWEVER.....over the years we have learned that don't go by an x-ray of a puppy with pneumonia. Being ill, congested, whatever, can cause a "shadowing" of the trachea, which will make it appear smaller. However, when you are able to get them over the illness, and six months later check the trachea, it is pretty normal.

However, with a small trachea, as Denise said, you can have continued bouts with pneumonia. Because of the narrow breathing space, it is difficult for them to cough up fluid, so it settles into their lungs, thus the pneumonia.

As for size, I'm sure I'm not explaining this correct, and my vet is on vacation for a month. When I see an x-ray I can point it out to you. However, between the third and fourth rib, the spacing towards the top....The width of that should be the diameter of the trachea. This rule applies for puppies and adults.

The other problem you can see with a trachea is a narrowing....Some of it might be an average width, but then it will have a severe narrowing in a couple of places. Of course, this is not good.

So I got up, let some of the dogs out, had coffee, got on the board, etc. Then, after John was up, around 8a.m. I went back to bed for a while..lol....

As many of you know, my dear Libby (RIP) had a hypoplastic trachea, size 4. However, this was not determined until she went in at 6 mos old to get spayed.

Believe me when I say she was a hyper spaz pup that showed no signs whatsoever of having a breathing problem. She was a non stop ball of nutso crazies. Granted, she was still a small pup and not to her full weight but no one ever suspected she had such a narrow trachea. Everyone was shocked.

Since the only way to check the trachea is either with x-rays or when the dog has surgery and they use a tube, most people do not even think about having the pup x-rayed when they go for their 48 hr vet check. They ask the breeder if there are any such defects and go from there. But, this is another genetic defect that can be dormant for a number of generations and then WHAM, it hits a dog or two. Such was the case with the Libster. Her and Sumo were from the same lines, have the same dad and other relatives. Sumo has a nice trachea as do all the other relatives. Poor Libs got the short end of the way back gene pool:(

If I'm not mistaken, x-rays will show the trach size but only to a degree, meaning it may look narrow but you don't really know how narrow and I do not believe they get larger as the pups grows.

Another interesting poll would be to find out the trachea sizes of our dogs, if we know what they are and see what our board average is. As a rule, the norm for bullies is between 6-8, 9 at the high end.

I am no expert by any means but Jez had severe trachea/palate problems. My daughter bought her from a couple here in town. They told her she was not show quality because the mom's legs were too long. Lynse wasn't looking for show so she bought her for $1,500. I acquired Jez 2 months later when she couldn't keep her in the apartment. I had never owned a bulldog before but still noticed immediately that she was having a horrible time breathing. She would sit up during the middle of the night hacking and I would pound on her back to help her. I sent her to the specialists in Houston and that's when I found out that her trachea was about the size of a straw. We did surgery on her palate and had her spayed at the same time. This was all new to me and that's when I found this board through a search engine. Because of the small trachea she is very prone to pneumonia which is out biggest problem. The last bout had her at the clinic for 7 days. Fortunately, I have not had any other problems with her. No skin problems, allergies, eye problems, not even gas!! My biggest problem is she wants to run with the other dogs and can't keep up.

i had monty's airway examined under sedation prior to being bred. the female i bred him to did not, but i felt comfortable with the breeding only because i know the girl well and she exhibits no breathing problems. the 2 pups that resulted breathe well so far, but they are still young. that's the only breeding experience i have...so i can't offer any more then that.

i don't know if i would want to subject a young pup to an xray unless needed, so i'm still deciding if i would screen a new puppy. at this point, if i didn't see any problems, i would not screen until the dog is mature. i would make sure both parents breathed well and would feel comfortable waiting. plus, if the mother had a c-section, trachea size would be known if the vet recorded it.

which leads me to my questions...

-if a bulldog has a small trachea or palate problem, would they have trouble breathing and catching their breath?

-if a dog breathes well at 2-3 years old, is it ok to assume the airway is good?

-what would be the minimum trachea size you would accept into a breeding program & would you ever make an exception?

-i have been told that a trachea size of 6-8 is average for a bulldog, is that correct?

thanks patti!! good post again

liz