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Veterinary Dermatology (long)

Hello Everyone! Sorry there's been such a delay, we've been pretty good all things considered. Life had been relatively uneventful up until recently, now I'm sort of back to the stages of kitchen-science with Matilda.

This Spring two issues began with Matilda that required vet visits. One was a possible UTI where she peed a light red for a few days. Switched her prophylactic Cipro to Baytril and after a few days it was back to normal. There were white and red blood cells in her urine and some e. coli but now she's back to her usual normal pee behavior, no discomfort, no reddish pee.

When we were at the vet, I asked about two or three spots of pinkish hair loss she'd developed that I thought could either be a fungal infection or something else yet to be named. She was skin-scraped, tape-tested, and given a prescription for ketoconazole. The vet told me in a very nice but "hands off" way that they are out of ideas for what's going on chronically with her skin. They recommended we see a dermatologist. So we made an appt...

The course of ketoconazole did next to nothing, btw. She still has these smallish, pinkish spots where the hair is gone and the skin is a bit dandruffy but it isn't itchy, wet, smelly, or bothering her. She is not otherwise stinky, greasy, or smelly. She still has the occasionally pimple breakout.

Our derm visit was yesterday. They scraped and tape-tested her again because the vet said "I have found mites where others have not" and she gave two options: a limited ingredient diet to find out if there is anything dietary she's allergic to and/or allergy shots based on the results of a test done by drawing blood.

I start by saying limited ingredient diet might work, but she's been on raw so I don't know how that would be better. The vet tells me they see a lot of bulldogs and this trial has worked to rule many things out. So we go with it. She says it's a very good skin diet of kangaroo and oat.

I read the dog food review today and to make a longer story longer: no thank you. For $42, you get oat flour, kangaroo that ends up being 20% once the water-content factor is removed, and all kinds of fun other things like "animal fat" and ethoxyquin. How is this a dermatology diet? Her current dog foods are 5 and 6-star and highly touted and has meat, bones, and vegetables. This kangaroo nonsense is 1-star and has beet pulp.

Matilda has been eating Stella and Chewy's Duck Duck Goose or Nature's Variety Raw Rabbit and can switch back and forth with all of the raw foods with no problem. She gets a c-tab and her raw food. Lately I've been adding coconut oil to her salmon oil and her nose is starting to heal on its own without separate applications of nose butter.

I think that she does have some food sensitivities, but I'm not going to make this worse by adding a food with a grain back into her diet. The problem is, I'm $250 in the hole to get told this? I don't want to fight with anyone, but I guess I just want to voice my opinion someplace that I really feel railroaded here. Railroaded back into the whole buy-a-vet-diet-that-sucks and yet they haven't been able to tell me exactly what her condition is.

Honestly, I think what with the change of seasons it may be related to grass and tree pollen. Matilda loves to eat grass outside (I discourage this but...hey...you can only do some much) so I'm sure that doesn't help things.

This vet's advise was to find out the source of the possible allergen so that Matilda could eventually be taken off regular courses of antibiotics. I just don't see how that's going to happen if for six weeks they want me to feed her tiny little choke-able kibble that isn't well-made, highly recommended, and is extremely expensive.

More of the story: I feel $250 dumb. I also feel vindicated in that I have had better results asking you guys for tips and experimenting with real food.

Kofi had similar issues

before I started her on raw. The vet said that she had seasonal allergies. Her spots were exactly what you described. 

I started her on raw last June, and they cleared up. 

I do not feed her prepackaged raw. We have graduated to the PMR diet.

This spring she had two spots show up. They didn't last long, and cleared up on their own.

I just believe that her immune system is much stronger on the raw diet.

Hope your girl gets better soon.

Give her a hug from Kofi and me.

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Kofi and Carol

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Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

PMR Diet

Carol - Could you forward links, books, etc that you have studied.  Also can you give me an idea of what your cost is for a month.  TY

DadtoMatilda's picture

I'd love to be able to do

I'd love to be able to do this, too, instead of prepackaged raw - because I want to do what is best.

However the whole idea terrifies me.

CathyandAudrey's picture

You CAN do PMR!

It is scary for everyone at first, but the pre-packaged has a lot of stuff in it she does not need, and if you feed her PMR you will have ABSOLUTE contorl over what she is eating.

She is a carnivore, which you already know, and she does not have the necessary enzymes to break down plant cells. Even though she is on grain free, I would bet there are still some sort of fruits or veggies in the pre-made.

Some dogs do not have any issues digesting fruits or veggies or grains. But some dogs liver, pancreas and kidneys have to work so HARD to get the nutrients out of plant matter it taxes them to the point that their immunity gets weakened. A weak immune system can not properly fight the normal everyday pathogens it comes into contact with.

Most people start with chicken, but since she's already been eating raw, you could go ahead and give her beef, pork, lamb, rabbit, any kind of meat you want! If you are concerned about stomach upset, reduce the amount at first to see how she does.

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Cathy and Audrey  

It terrified me too

in the beginning. I proceeded very slowly. It took Kofi some months to get the hang of chewing. I was extremely cautious, but now it's just second nature. I love to hear her crunching, and her teeth are clean as can be.

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Kofi and Carol

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Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Prepackaged

is just too expensive and I have to start reducing my food costs...so as soon as I move I'm going to start this.  It will give me some time to do some research.  Right now I think I'm spending $300-$350 per month for the 3 dogs, maybe more. I'm scared to calculate it. 

Deb, I have learned so much

from dogwise.com. I am not very good at posting links, but the raw food forum has true experts on this subject.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/

The raw feeders there are very informed, and there is a wealth of info. I take what I am comfortable with. Kofi now gets meat for breakfast and bone in at dinner.

Bone in are often chicken quarters, miscut chicken breasts, and not so often pork ribs or lamb chops.

Her meat could be whatever beef is on sale, and sometimes ground turkey. Organs once or twice a week, sometimes more depending on her poo.

I have both Tom Lonsdales books.....Raw Meaty Bones, and Work Wonders feed your dog raw meaty bones. 

I no longer grind bones or use the cleaver before giving to Kofi. She has learned to deal with the whole bone better than in the beginning, and I am much more relaxed also.

Of course, I always watch her closely.

There are people feeding raw at all levels on Dogwise, but those who are in the know are very helpful and polite.

Hope this helps. I don't feed the large variety, and have no access to a raw food provider, but Kofi is doing great on it. I wish I could tell you more about the cost. I can say that I just bought a large 10 lb bag of chicken quarters last week for 6.99. I just started feeding the quarters, and she loves them. Most of her bones are chicken. 

Beef I buy when it's on sale, and she get's about a pound a day counting both meals.

I hope this helps, Deb.

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Kofi and Carol

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Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

TY -- I'll start doing some research

I know Melanie used to use a co-op for her raw so I'll have to check into that with her.

onslowsmom's picture

What you are describing is exactly

what Onslow has been dealing with.  The vet found bacteria on his skin, he has pyoderma.  Its a bacterial skin infection induced by seasonal allergies.  It started as like a black spot on his skin, then it would get scaly and crust into a scab and then the scab and all the fur with it would fall out.  He has been on cephlexin for 2 weeks and has 2 more weeks to go, we got antibacterial baths to give him 2x per week.  The irritation is all cleared up now we are just waiting for his fur to grow back. 

This is what it looked like at its worst.  My last vet had no clue (this happened last year too) and kept putting him on steroids which did nothing. I finally found a vet that knows what they are talking about and I couldn't be happier!

This is after 2 weeks cephlexin

I'm shocked that a dermatologist would advise that course of treatment. I hope you figure out whats up with Matilda.  THe vet simply took some flakes of his skin and looked under microscope to see the bacteria.  Just thought I'd share our story maybe it will help.

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onslowsmom's picture

PS

He also had a lot of dandruff. 

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DadtoMatilda's picture

I guess I was also shocked

I guess I was also shocked that they would recommend taking Matilda off the raw diet and putting her back on a commercial kibble that is called "skin and coat"...and yet has known nasties in it.

The spots that Matilda has:

1) the skin darkens with the age of the spot. new ones are pink. older ones are darkish.

2)the spot is flaky but her skin is generally not.

2) the spots are random. one on her ribs, two on the underside of her neck, and one on her front left leg.

3) the spots do not itch, bleed, or otherwise concern her.

Those are the same thing

that Kofi had.

I don't know if this hastened the process of healing, but I used tea tree oil on them. Since she got the same spots again this spring (only two), I did nothing but tea tree a few times. It cleared up in a couple of weeks.

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Kofi and Carol

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DadtoMatilda's picture

Some pics I took of it

the section of her flank, older

 

back foot

front chest, close up

look at the beginning and end of my index finger

and a sunbathing picture just for good measure

I am not shocked about the recommendation....

not sure where you are but here is a story for you:

a friend who does rescue went to apply at the vet's office for a job.  She was just about offered the job when the vet said to her "you know you have to recommend Science diet to the patients here".  She said she would not because between them, they both know that Science Diet is crap food and she would not recommend it to anyone.  He told her she HAS to and she said no.  She did not get the job. They make a profit off of it.  They don't do it because it is the best food around.  If that was the case, they most dog food companies would be out of business!!!

Sad huh?

Maggie and Sadie's Momma's picture

Sadie has some spots

That look like your pictures.  About a month ago we took her in to be boarded while we went on vacation and asked them to check a spot on her head that was pinkish tan and missing hair.  Our vet did a scraping and called us to tell us it was demodectic mange.  We've had her on invermectin until her last dose a couple nights ago, but she's got several little spots on her flank and feet like you show and I don't recall seeing those before the diagnosis.  I'm sure they've probably checked for that on Matilda, but now you've got me curious if Sadie doesn't have something else going on as well.

Maggie and Sadie's Momma's picture

BTW

The vet said the demodectic mange is given to the puppy through suckling on the mother.  Maggie and Sadie have the same mom and Maggie has never had this issue (she's about 9 months older).  So that also makes me go hmmm....

RobinandLeo's picture

mange

The way I understand mange is that the mites are naturally occuring on dog (and our) skin. The mites become a problem when the dog's immune system is compromised and it allows an overgrowth of the mites. Stress, illness, heat cycle, etc. can be enough to trigger an outbreak.

The 2 times any of my dogs have had a problem with mange was at about 8-9 months of age when the girls came into heat for the 1st time. Both had dime sized patches on a foreleg that cleared up quickly.