Questions about sedatives used during Neuter surgery

My bully Duke was neutered on Tuesday. WHen I picked him up I noticed on the invoice he ws given Phenobarb as a sedative prior to surgery. Now I know Phenobarb is an Anti-epileptic med and asked why he was given this. The Vet tech told me my dog has seizures and is epileptic. THis dog does NOT have seizures or epilepsy. My previous dog was epileptic and because of that i will not do yearly boosters on my bully. This is noted in my bully's chart. The next morning I asked the Vet why this drug was given. She told me that it is one of the sedatives she uses for surgeries. I have never seen this drug being used for this surgery or any other unless the dog is epileptic. My niece had her dog neutered by this same vet the week before and her dog was not given Phenobarb. If this is standard procedure for this vet, would she not have given it to my nieces dog? Can you guys look at your invoices for neuter surgeries and see if your dogs where given Phenobarb prior to surgery? I personally think she is trying to cover her ass. My guy had breathing issues after surgery and I believe it is due to the Phenobarb being given. Phenobarb depresses the Central Nervous System. I know bully's are known to have problems with anaesthic, but I think the Phenobarb made the situation worse. I think the vet is lying and trying to cover her ass. Why would the tech tell me has seizures and the vet tell me it's SOP. SO has anybody elses furkids been given Phenobarb prior to neuter surgery? Very Very upset right now!!!!

onslowsmom's picture

You have the right to be upset

Maybe someone else here will tell you different but as far as I know it is for seizures only.  Not Sedation. 

My vet uses propofol and sometimes Ace is used on other breeds.  I would definitely be looking for another vet stat. 

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judy wilson's picture

your vet is full of BS

they had the wrong chart and the wrong dog......a tech pulled the chart for the dog that had seizures.....good thing nothing bad happened...but i would write a nice note to this vet....and find another one...a much more honest one.....fine they made a mistake but they did not admit it....i would run the next time could be a bad situation!!!!!!!

Thats what I thought. I dont

Thats what I thought. I dont trust vets as it is. I have sent an email to the OVC and have been told to file an official complaint. Considering dogs are considered "property" I dont know what good it will do. But I will be filing a formal complaint. Are there any vets on this site that maybe want to give me their 2 cents worth? I am  so pissed!!!!

Thanks guys for responding. I am now on to my 3rd vet for my guys, getting tired of vets talking to me like I dont have a clue. I am no vet, but I spend more than enough time researching everything and anything to do with dogs. SO FRUSTATING!!!

 

I agree, if they had said it

I agree, if they had said it was a mistake, I can live with that. I understand we are human and do make mistakes, but for the vet tech to tell me he has seizures and then the vet tell me it is SOP. I thought they were an honest clinic, I seem to have a really hard time finding an honest vet.

 

judy wilson's picture

are you near any of the vets on the list....

i went thru a few mostly becasue of attitude.....i have one i now trust....but i still question alot....and like you i do alot of research.....yes report them i would...and when people go to check on them they will see your and any other complait they have on them....it is a pain to find someone...but you will

being near vets on the list...

I know Dr Ball is recommended by the Bulldog Club of Canada and he's about an hour away, actually the ones on this list are about the same distance. I am probably the worst client a vet could have because I question everything...lol. I definitely will be interviewing vets..lol.

Who decides which vets get on this list of bully vets? and how do they determine they are good bully vets? I think I am starting to drive my husband crazy with all my vet craziness!!!

judy wilson's picture

people out their how do vets get put on the bully list!!!!!!!

michelle wants to know........and my vet is 45 min away...most people will drive the distance.....

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Vets on the BDW List

The vets on the list are all vets that we (the forum members) recommended.  David did the list years ago from our suggestions.

I actually had him remove a vet that was on the list.

I plan on filing a formal

I plan on filing a formal complaint. Should I let the vet clinic know I will be doing this?

CathyandZimmer's picture

And it's been updated recently..

some were removed & new ones were added, all based on recommendations from folks on the board.

__________________

Cathy & Zimmer

www.midatlanticbulldogrescue.com

 

 

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Propofol as an induction

and then Isoflurane.

They vet screwed up...like the others said.

any recourse???

Other than filing a formal complaint with OVC and finding another vet, do I have any other options?

 

judy wilson's picture

sadly no

since your pet did not pass away or suffer any long term problems...their is nothing else you can do.....

That really sucks, seems they

That really sucks, seems they can do whatever they want. I just received an email from the owner of the clinic, I had asked him about the Phenobarb use and if he would use it for his French Bulldog and his response "was It works very well as a sedative and relaxant.  We use it in combination for sedation when we need sedation without using other sedatives that may be hard on the heart.  So to answer your question, I would use it on my frenchie if I needed to.  It is not used all of the time though as a premedication before surgery." Really?? Then why use it on my mine?? I am waiting for my niece to send my a copy of her bill for her Shitzu's neuter, which was performed by the same vet and is a brachycephalic breed. Should be the same drug wise right? Just venting...thanks for listening


judy wilson's picture

no they cant...

vets can be disbarred just like human doctors..... but it has to be bodily harm....i would keep that e mail and send to voc.... which i assume is your vet board????  if they determine that the statment is bs...they can pull a license for a day a month a year...save all your correspondence.....if your really angey post a note in the local paper asking people who own bulldogs who go to this vet e mail you...and then ask them what was used for surgery,,,the more information the more the ammo.....

Thanks Judy for the advice.

Thanks Judy for the advice. Like I said I am waiting for my niece to send me her receipt, considering she has a Shitzu which is brachycephalic as well, should be the same protocol right

 

judy wilson's picture

as a vet tech for 20 years

we never changed induction....and i was a emergency tech...so i delt with hit by cars...severe trauma...and we never changed how we took a dog down....even the neuters...were the same...this was so no one could make a mistake....but we were breed specific...we never knocked down a greyhound like a german shepard....and the smushed noses were a certain way...but every single time....

just by the tech telling you your dog had seizures........is a red flag and that tells me the back room tech and its the tech not the vets who knock dogs down.....read the wrong chart on the wrong dog of yours.....thats were i know they screwed up......and then screwed up even more by putting it on your bill and not hiding the fact.....

 

This is the meds used for his

This is the meds used for his surgery:

Dexamathazone, Oxygen Therapy, Phenobarbital, Torbugesic, Midazolam, Diprivan, Glycolpyrrolate, Hydromorphone. Personally I think they gave him too much sedative or something, he crashed, they brought him back, and I think thats why he had respiratory problems during surgery, they had a hard time waking him up, and had to have someone watch him to make sure he stayed breathing for 4 hours. I think they downplayed what happened by the looks of the meds. Can you give me your opinion? Thanks

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

 butorphanol ("Torbugesic")

 

butorphanol ("Torbugesic") is widely used as a sedative and analgesic in dogs

 Phenobarbital - It is the most widely used anticonvulsant worldwide,[1] and the oldest still commonly used.[2] It also has sedative and hypnotic properties but, as with other barbiturates, has been superseded by the benzodiazepines for these indications

Midazolam -The drug is used for treatment of acute seizures, moderate to severe insomnia, and for inducing sedation and amnesia before medical procedures

Dexamethasone - Anti-inflammatory

In anesthesia, glycopyrrolate injection can be used as a preoperative medication in order to reduce salivary, tracheobronchial, and pharyngeal secretions, as well as decreasing the acidity of gastric secretion

Hydromorphone, a more common synonym for dihydromorphinone, commonly a hydrochloride (brand names Palladone, Dilaudid, and numerous others) is a very potent centrally-acting analgesic drug of the opioid class.  Hydromorphone is used in medicine as an alternative to morphine for analgesia, and as a second- or third-line narcotic antitussive (cough suppressant) for cases of dry, painful, paroxysmal coughing resulting from continuing bronchial irritation

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Holy Crap

That looks like a lot of meds for surgery.  I will get out my latest surgery receipt and look.   But I'm sure my vet only uses Propofol, which is Diprivan and Isoflurane

Thanks Deb

Thanks Deb

Fired off an email to the vet asking for answers

So we'll see what she has to say. I called her on what the tech said about him being epileptic and her telling me that its her standard procedure to use Pheonobarb for surgery. I also told her I had spoke to friends who had the same surgery performed on their brachcephalic breeds and this drug was not used. Lets see her weasel her way out of this one!!! I think I want everything on paper, more fuel for the fire!

vets response 2 wks later...

So 2 wks later she has emailed me back and this is her response

I know we already discussed that I will routinely use phenobarbital as pre-medication for many of my routine procedures (neuters, mass removals, etc).  It is a technique I learned during an anesthesia course taught by a board certified anesthesiologist (Dr Nancy Brock) - not every veterinarian will use the same anesthetic protocols all the time, we will fit them to each patient.  The choice of medication depends on many things (pain associated with the procedure, length of time under anesthesia, medical conditions, etc). This is a protocol I have found myself using more and more as I find the results very reliable and safe.  Duke's blood work was normal and other than being brachycephalic I felt he was healthy. It's hard to say if a different protocol would have changed Duke's recovery but I am doubtful. I feel the relaxation in his neck and airway muscles caused him to have some issues with respiration after the anesthesia but this is a risk with any sedation in the brachycephalic breeds. Because he was an older intact male his face was especially muscular and I think this also contributed to his respiratory noise when waking up, along with his elongated soft palate and closed nostrils.It was miscommunication on my technicians' part to say the phenobarbital was used because Duke had seizures - I had not seen any notes in his file regarding this and that was not my intention (to prevent seizures) when using this medication. As an aside for its use with sedation, I have also sent home oral Phenobarbital for traveling pets (as it does not affect their hearts adversely when flying) as well as for anxious and hyper pets to allow them to come into the clinic for their exams. She claims she was away for 2 wks and thats why she didn't respond (no out of office reply?) Could it maybe she was consulting someone on this matter or just realized that I transferred the kids to their competition? So had anybody heard of this before, with the Pheno? Still dont believe her and getting angrier by the second. Thanks for letting me vent!! :-)