Question for breeders?
Submitted by CathyandAudrey on November 10, 2010 - 7:45pmIf the BCA asked you to support breeding bulldogs with bigger hips,(or smaller heads, or both) so they can free whelp, would you support it? The only way it could really work would be universal agreement and a change in the standard reflected in the show ring. Wouldn't it be better for the BCA to make that change of it's own free will, so it can decide on the specifics, instead of waiting til it's forced on them and they have little to no say in the specifics?
If you are dead set against it, why? Would you still breed and show bulldogs if the BCA made the decision? If the BCA was forced into it?
__________________
Cathy and Audrey 
Breeding for free-whelping....
It's unknown how many Bulldogs are free-whelped vs those born by c-section. Females have or should have larger hips than the males, and I think larger hips than what they are now not only wouldn't look right, but would change the gait. I don't know if it's necessarily the hips or puppy heads that are the problem. Puppies of any breed can get stuck in birth canal, and I know breeders of Corgis and Bernese Mountain Dogs that frequently have c-sections, as well as breeders of other breeds that have had one or more c-sections. I think it's possible that some of the Bulldogs ignore the pain and/or urges to push or run out of steam. I think many, if not most, probably could successfully free-whelp. Our Beulah free-whelped two litters -- one each in 2002 and 2003, but I felt the 2nd delivery was late and a reason for several born dead...the vet said she was just too tired, but I noticed her uncomfortable the day before and asked that the puppies be taken but the vet insisted we wait another day. This delivery took hours longer than the first and a puppy got stuck...but did come out on way to the vet. I would have attempted allowing subsequent free-whelped deliveries with her granddaughter if I had a reliable vet who would work with me and be available at any time if she had a problem, but not having that, I've scheduled their c-sections--I just didn't want to take a chance.
Thank you for answering!
I do realize that this could be a loaded question, and I am NOT trying to start a debate. I just recently had to hear again about the 'poor suffering bulldogs'... can't breathe, exercise, swim, or even breed naturally, etc... I'm sure you've heard them all. Most of the stuff they say, although it can be true, is NOT the norm for most bulldogs. But the breeding part is. I know in Englad they have changed the standard, and it was NOT well received with the bulldoggers over there, and there are so many who think it should be changed in the US also. So I was wondering if breeders here would be ever be willing to collectively and voluntarily make a change so it would not be so dangerous for them to free whelp. And so they would not be faced with a change forced on them with little say about it.
If the heads need to be smaller instead of the hips bigger, would that be acceptable? If the hips were bigger and it DID alter the gait, would that be aceptable? I guess I am tyring to ask what IS it exactly that bulldog breeders here are absolutely unwilling to change, no matter how it effects the dogs' ability to breed?
PLEASE do not take this as an accusation or attack, it is so hard with written words to truly convey tone and attitude. I have no where else to ask, to see how breeders feel, and to hear what they have to say on the subject. I am tired of the attitudes form people who think bulldogs are suffering from human torture every day of their lives..
Cathy and Audrey
You will never
change those peoples minds. If the standard is changed do they think that next year we will miracously have healthy dogs that can free whelp? How do they even know the dogs will be healthier or the breedrers will start having natural births by changing the standard. We are not the only breed that regularly do csections. Who has determined a standard change will have any effect on the breed. The change in the UK standard certainly won't have any effect on the breed as a whole in our lifetime. No one can control a breeder who continues to breed unhealthy. That really is the problem, not the standard. Even on these forums everyone seems to think that they ALL have surgeries that are to be expected (ie cherry eye, palete, nares, eyes, etc.), they ALL have allegies and they are common, they ALL can't walk or swim or exercise, they ALL simply lay on the couch 24/7 and these are bulldog owners. OH and I love this one....they can't go up and down stairs. OMG do they have to have an elevator.
ROTFL!
Why yes, we ALL have to install elevators in our homes if we want our bulldogs to go upstairs.
Cathy and Audrey
Assumptions
I think there are many assumptions that they cannot free whelp and breed naturally. There are breeders that do free whelp and I know of 1 show breeder that has successfully free whelped at least 2 maybe 3 litters I'm aware of in the past couple of years. My first bulldog Norbert was from a free whelped litter of 8. The owner/breeder of the bitch was a vet so he could perform a c-section if necessary. What is really the issue is that we are not willing to put the bitch or the puppies in a life threatening situation to take a chance. They are an investment and I don't mean that just monetarily. I have no doubt that Ester could free whelp but I would never even consider it. It is much safer to do a csection. She means way to much to me to chance her life. As for free breeding...most breeders use AI or many are doing implants. It depends on if the semen is fresh or frozen. We are far past those days of having to mate the stud dog with the bitch and have so many more options (including dead dogs and dogs overseas) with the use of frozen semen and AI.You also have to consider the infections that can happen from natural breedings, the time it takes, etc. After sitting with dogs breeding and waiting for them to untie I would much rather AI, so much easier on the bitch and dog and yourself.
The breed standard is the same it has been for 100+ years. Why do the idiots think it needs to be changed. There are many many healthy Bulldogs that are lovely specimens of correct breed type that are healthy. The real problem is the people (I can't call these people breeders) that breed without regard for the breed. Those that breed dogs with poor health, temperment problems, and confirmation problems, BYB and puppy millers that are simply in it for the $$$.
I wonder how many new puppy buyers on the forum have specifically looked for breeders that are health testing? Avoided those breeders that tell them Cherry Eye, palette surgery, etc is common. I was proud to tell my puppy buyers that Ester and Cannon have had NO surgical procedures and are both health tested. I plan on doing more health testing on Ester if I decide to breed her again. My contract also provides a health guarantee for hereditary issues up to 1 year of age. The 2 puppies (our litter was split) I sold and Kohl have all received raving fans from the vets that have done well puppy checks on them.
Oh BTW .... they can swim, all of mine have been able to swim, not all of them sink. BUT it's easier to just say they can't swim. They are not labradors and never will be, and changing the standard will not change that. The breed was not meant to be water dogs, just like labs weren't meant to bait bulls. Any one remember Lisa with Milo and Gertie. They used to swim everyday in the ocean in Hawaii.
IMO many dogs could free whelp
But, why take the chance? The puppies could be too big or water puppies and get stuck in the birth canal. I think that c sections are not the biggest problem facing our breed. Should women not be allowed to have children unless they can give birth without c sections? To me it's the same principle.
We can work on many things like dysplastic hips, palates, nares and eyes to help improve our breed without changing the overall structure of the bulldog. Personally, I love today's bulldog and would not want to change the basic appearance. The bottom line is, too many dogs are bred that should have been spayed instead.
In my opinion
and my vets...
Bulldogs that can free whelp would be a huge improvement in the breed. If AKC and the BCA were encouraging it, I'd just on that band wagon. I'd love to be able to just breed for that on my own but I know that they puppies wouldn't be show quality and would be less desireable by pet homes either. Everyone wants a big headed wrinkly bulldog. - My bulldog actually has a decently small head without being poorly conformed. She doesn't have one of those huge rounc heads.. Her's is actually shaped like a brick likey they are supposed to be anyway, longer than they are wide. - But I've always thought she looked strange compared to those huge headed bullies. But everyone tells me she's a really great looking Bulldog and well conformed too. - So apparently they aren't supposed to be as big headed as some people like.
I actually know several people who are turned off by Cobby super short legged, no necked, big headed Bulldogs. Few people like them these days it seems.
Also...
The Bulldog is still an evolving breed to some extent too. If you go to Europe their bulldogs look a bit different than ours. I can't remember where it is but somewhere foreign they actually have different standards than ours too. They don't accept curled or crooked tails either. They have to be straight. And there was a big uproar a while back about the c-section thing and the breathing problems and so now the show standards in that country (with I could remember which) have changed to allow longer snouts, smaller heads and a few other differences. - I think longer legs are even in there. So the breed is still changing. That was a fairly recent change I believe. I think eventually enough people here will become irate over the medical issues associated with the breed standard requirements and AKC and the BCA will probably have to change their standards too. - We will see I guess. (I looked it up and I think it's in the UK they've been making these changes - Apparently it started with a documentary or video that was put out about how bulldogs overheat and pant a ton at shows and a bunch of other things. The public was pretty upset over the movie.).
Bulldogs should be well balanced
It's not about big heads vs small heads or long legs vs short legs. It's balance.
In my opinion, the biggest detriment to the breed is puppy millers and back yard breeders who are more concerned with the quantity of bulldogs they produce rather than the quality.
Interestingly
the breed has had many of the same problems for the past 100 years. If you discuss this subject with some of the historians of the breed you will find there are many many articles that have been written by breeders years ago about the same issues of today. Genetics is an interesting thing.
I doubt even with the change in the UK standard that you will see much changes in what the breeders are breeding. Are you going to dump your whole breeding progam and grab a few pets to breed just to try and please a couple of power players behind a desk who think changing the standard will make the breed healthier. It's ridiculous!
The people that want big and wrinkly are usually the pet puppy buyers. Most breeders are interested in the quality and correctness of the head and jaw. When referring to the standard the term heavily wrinkled does not have the same meaning as heavy wrinkles. They should have wrinkles but not overdone. As Jacinda mentioned balance is very important.
Brick head is not a term that is even mentioned in the standard but it is a term that is used by breeders. It does not mean long and narrow if looking at the head face on. The brick shape is looking at the side profile of the head. The head should be square if you are looking at it from the front. There are good illustrations of this on the AKC standard as well as the BCA illustration, via the websites. Also bitches will not have the same head or grandness of head as a male.
I have an old book
on breeding bulldogs and the author says the breeding bitches are NOT what they considered show quality, because show quality hips are too small to deliver puppies. This was early 1900's, must've been before c-sections. It is a VERY interesting book. I just love seeing the early pictures. The early bulldogs did have smaller heads overall, and just seemed proportionately smaller overall.
I do not get to see enough show quality bulldogs, I more usually see pictures of pet quality. What I DO notice is that there seems to be quite a variation in the size mostly, of champion bulldogs, and some variation in the head/mouth etc....They are NOT cookie cutter dogs, where you've seen one champion you've seen them all. I LOVE that about bulldogs!
Cathy and Audrey
I love you guys!
I KNOW I shouldn't let people get to me, but every once in a while they just piss me off so much! I am so glad you all gave me perspective, that's exacly what I was looking for. I know some people have their minds made up about all bulldogs, I just hate it when I happen across one of them. That high horse they jump on about how their dogs have no restrictions whatsoever and it's just human vanity that insists on bulldogs with features that can not be free whelped makes me want to strangle them! I 100% agree that indiscriminate breeders, not just byb but show breeders also that ignore serious health issues and breed anyways, are the ones that continue the most serious health problems.
I was thinking that a change in the standard would take generations to actually have an effect. I think what they did in England was poorly done, a few changes I could maybe see but they have demanded an entirely different dog! Thats' why I was curious if US breeders would ever try to do it on their own, to avoid that forced extreme change.
I would LOVE it if bulldogs could free whelp all the time without the serious threat to their lives and their puppies lives though. I will admit that that is one thing that does still bother me about the breed. I don't want to see long-legged long-snouted bulldogs as a necessity to change it though. I know that makes me hypocritical. I wouldn't mind proportionately smaller heads.
Cathy and Audrey
interesting question.
My opinion is being able to free whelp this breed will not change health issues that this breed has. You have to understand that this is a "man made" dog for a purpose
that is not practiced anymore. That is why they look different from the past to present. Wrinkles, height, tail, and even the split on the outside mouth under the nose played a part
in making this breed. As to health issues there are common health issues for this breed and SOME have nothing to do with poor breeding. For those who have bullies who never
had issues your lucky but to say to buy only from breeders that show will not guarantee healthy pups either. Look at their contract to see my point. How many pups from a litter of "to the standard" parents are to the standard? How about those Champs who come from non-standard parents? Champs don't always stay to the standard. And let me not start with how easy it is for even show breeders to pass out semen when you have the cash not caring what your female looks like. Doubt me, try researching who's in your bullies pedigree.
I'm not in favor in changing the standard because it is continually changing. What I mean by that is if you go to the shows you will notice every judge is different and if you put past champions in line with current you will see the change. I strongly agree "balance" is the key.
But really tell me what's wrong with a leggy bully? Or if one is too short, has a large head, straight tail vs curly, got a cherry eye removed, swimmers vs non swimmers, and even longer ears than others? Are they not to be bred?
I am not one to say yes or no, because it should be left to the breeder and buyer of what he/she wants in a bully. Show dogs are show dogs and pet quality pets are pets. And they will always be 2 separate catagories no matter what. And to be frank that's one reason why I love this breed.
JayLita
I think breeding to an official standard is important
That is why we have purebred dogs, to have DISTINCTIVE recognizable characteristics and traits that are mutually agreed upon by breed fanciers and something to strive for when considering breeding. Without breeding to a standard, and individual breeders breeding for their own personal likes and dislikes there will eventually be so much disparity in any given breed it will become difficult to even recognize them as that breed. So if someone does not care about the distinctive features that set a breed apart, like the bulldogs' head for instance, why would they breed them?
It is not a matter of the dogs are right or wrong, it is a matter of WHY are they deliberatly creating and bringing so called purebred dogs into the world if they do not care for the traits of that particular breed of purebred dog? No, I do not think it's OK to just randomly bring dogs into the world because someone feels like doing so.There is no shortage of pet quaity dogs, and I don't think anyones really believes that a champion dog will only produce champion dogs. But if the goal is to be a breeder of purebred dogs, then YES there is a responsibilty to choose dogs for breeding that adhere to the standard. No dog is perfect, but if there are OBVIOUS serious deviations from the standard, than it is a detriment to the breed overall to breed that dog anyways. Again the question would be be WHY breed purebred dogs if attempting to keep true to the distinctive traits of the particular breed are not important to the breeder?
Yes bulldogs have changed! The original bulldog standard was written 146 years ago, AFTER bullbaiting was made illegal, so while that original group did write the standard traits with a specific purpose in mind, today's bullodgs are not the same as those early dogs.
I don't think anyone is saying that people that show will have guaranteed healthy puppies, in fact most are saying that the only way to get HEALTHY puppies is to buy from breeders that diligently health test and breed for health. How many non-show breeders truly go that far to make sure they only breed healthy dogs? The guarantee you SHOULD get from a reputable show breeder is that they will stand behind their breeding program and guarantee the health of the dogs, for at least a year. And also that the breeder is breeding purebred dogs with the standard in mind when choosing the dogs to breed. The best way to truly and effectivley have proof that a dog is a good example of the breed is to show it.
Cathy and Audrey
Well stated
You summed it up very nicely.
Agree?!
It is important but weren't you asking about changing the standard to have a more healthier bulldog? The point I was making is even breeders with show dogs can't guarrantee their litters will be to the standard and still are selling their dogs with full rights to breed. The problem of mass population of non-standard bullies is so large that really how can it be minimized.
I will say that one way I have researched that might help this is buying a bully from a breeder that has OFA tested both the sire and the dam. With this I feel you will be breeding a more healthier bully and to the standard. Then AKC should make this a requirement just like getting a dog DNA for breeding to receive registration paperwork. On top of that the Shows should also make this a requirement. Now I think that would put a big push on getting results towards breeding to the standard.
I'm not hating on the breeders or the shows since I am getting involved with both, I'm just expressing an opinion that I believe will benefit the breed.
In my eyes and heart though even the non-standard bullies are a Gods gift to us.
JayLita
Pure breed bulldog....
A bully that is not to the standard does not mean that it is not a pure breed english bulldog.
Jaylita
Education is the key
Puppy buyers need to spend more time researching breeders. But, I do know how easy it is to be misled by a breeder.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you can have a perfectly healthy bulldog that does not meet the standard. Health testing is great but it won't guarantee a healthy puppy or a puppy that meets the standard. Don't get me wrong, I am for testing but, it's not fail proof. I think breeders should gather as much information as they can about the dogs in the pedigrees they are breeding.
Researching breeders is hard sometimes
Especially if you don't have a place like BDW to ask for advice. I know I had no clue really what to even ask, and the few thigns I DID know to ask, the answers were NOT what I expected.
I was already in LOVE with Audrey by that point from all the pictures I had gotten of her, there was something about her face that I could not walk away from. To be honest, she could have had a serious health issue and I probably would have still gotten her. I have NEVER ever fallen for a dog like I did for her, and I am an internet puppy gawker :-) She is the only dog ever I have simply HAD to have.
I am mainly concerned with personality, moreso than meeting the standard, because I am not interested in showing. Health of course is #1, and now that I know what to look for, I feel like I can make a MUCH better, more informed decision. I think color is the last thing I care about, that doesn't really matter to me at all.
Cathy and Audrey
I was responding to your comments
But really tell me what's wrong with a leggy bully? Or if one is too short, has a large head, straight tail vs curly, got a cherry eye removed, swimmers vs non swimmers, and even longer ears than others? Are they not to be bred?
I am not one to say yes or no, because it should be left to the breeder and buyer of what he/she wants in a bully. Show dogs are show dogs and pet quality pets are pets. And they will always be 2 separate catagories no matter what. And to be frank that's one reason why I love this breed.
It's these 2 comments you made I was disagreeing with. I think it's irresponsible for a breeder to breed dogs that deviate too far from the standard, and I think it's irresponsible to breed pet quality dogs with the intent to produce pet quality dogs. I DO think a breeder
My original question was about free whelping specifically, and there is a great discussion on health testing on the main forum. I learned SO MUCH from that discussion!
I totally agree that ALL bullies are a special gift. :-)
Cathy and Audrey
I understand...
.... great discussion. This is a very complex topic. You have to take in mind peoples opinion on "pet quaility" and "to the standard" dogs. I feel the health of the breed is more important.
That's the thing about eugenics and dogs. The standard is and will change through time in hopes to better the breed.
Jay