like to read those from Elizabeth, her story of how her family started in the breed, was heartwarming. So many times we here of top breeders and have no clue as to how it was when they started. This dialog has been thought provoking and educational. This is what learning is all about. thank you for all who contributed. And, thanks to all who at least took the time to read the comments! This is what it is all about. RESPECT for oneself and above ALL RESPECT for OTHERS. and..... TOLERANCE! for everyone is entitled to their opinion. E - come back to the east coast!!!!!!!!!

Mike and the bullies

Nothing burns me up worse than to hear a judge that is showing say Oh he/she has a bad blah blah blah(and yes, I've heard a couple say it)-well if it's bad WTH are they doing showing it?

This is the only thing I don't really agree with. I think all dogs have faults, and not recognizing them would make one just look like a moron no?? I would think that if someone held back a dog to further there breeding program there was a reason they are over looking a fault or faults in the dog if they feel that it can bring something better to the table with the right combination... should those dogs be left at home and just bred? It wouldn't bother me in the least to hear someone fess up to what they liked and didn't like in there dog. I've heard so many times ring side people say I.E. why did that dog with the crappy rear beat mine, I think its easy to pick out faults in the winners, they're in the lime light. I've seen a long time breeder use a dog in there breeding program that would never of obtained a point, this confused me until I saw the puppies 2 generations later. I think breeding is an art and dog shows are a sport, two totally different things. Some people will improve as they go, some stay the same for 30 yrs, and some ruin it within 3 or 4 generations. I like to judge my dogs at home off lead running, gaiting, catching site of something and standing naturally, that doesn't always show in the ring with stress, small rings ect. Its hard making breeding choices for me when you can't see or know a dog fully. JM late night opion...lol... gotta love it all anyway right?

While I'll say that it is hard to disagree with your post and what Elizabeth says in her responses, I'll add a couple thoughts to the thread hoping to bring out some of the lurkers for additional input.

How many times have we been at shows and think, this judge has really no clue after watching his/her placements, winners, etc? Then,next thing we hear is how well the Judge did from another bulldoggers viewpoint. Some of this stuff really is just our own impressions and some agree with us, while others disagree. Who is right and who is wrong? How many times do we see people showing a dog/bitch that we wouldn't show? And some of them win.... Often times the person showing the dog is convinced the dog is a good representative of the breed, according to the standard.

I personally believe we need more debate and discussion about the standard which I don't see happening as much as it used to, either on the internet or at shows......Wouldn't our breed benefit from more discussion on the standard by its breeders and exhibitors? True dissecting of the standard, piece by piece, leading to greater study of its components and hopefully better understanding by all....

I miss the old detailed discussions we used to have over the years about the standard and its parts. I beleive it helps us all in all aspects of the breed......

With that said we all have our impressions of the standard, judging, etc........Whose right and whose wrong? Through discussion and debate hopefully we all improve our education of the breed and continue to learn if we are willing to consider others view points.

Harrold
www.majorleaguebulldogs.com

I don't think anyone will jump you, your point of view is a common one.
I tend to look at some people winning as more "brand recognition" than pure "politics".
I find it easy to see who the game players are.
Not all wins by famous bulldog people, judges or not, are crooked.
I agree judges should have amazing dogs and be true experts.
I don't agree that once you judge you have to give up showing.
Specialing is another matter, I can see both sides.
e

I was told when I first got in this there would be days when my dog was the better dog and should of won but you did and there will be other days when your dog was the better dog and my dog won. I totally agree once an exhibitor becomes a judge they should decide what they want to do-show or judge. I think too much politics come into play when they do both. When a judge shows I expect to see a near perfect specimen of the breed-setting the standard too high? I don't think so and if a judge walks in the ring with a less than worthy dog shame on them. Nothing burns me up worse than to hear a judge that is showing say Oh he/she has a bad blah blah blah(and yes, I've heard a couple say it)-well if it's bad WTH are they doing showing it? Because as Rod says-you pat my back I'll pat yours and anyone who says this doesn't happen either has their head in the sand, is wearing blinders or just FOS. I've been told only sore losers complain about political wins, but I notice most the people who use that line are the political winners. That's my .02, now don't everyone jump me at one time-LOL
L

Laura
Thunderstruck Bulldogs
http://sitekreator.com/thunderstruckbulldog/index.html

To those who understand no explanation is needed. To those who don't no explanation is possible.

I say sport because, part of this whole dog showing, at least to me is sportsmanship. I have seen good examples and bad. Being relatively new (5 years now, my how time flys), we openly solicited the opinions of many many breeders, as well as judges and veterinarians; as to the soundness that is being shown in the ring and how we could better our program. It was not uncommon for us to approach a judge at the end of the day and ask what they liked and didn't like in what we had. That brought out cold sweats in some, and in others, quite an informative dialog of what they saw. After abit, it also became a clinic in what the judges saw, by comparison of what they said and what they pulled. Thus there came the dns list! It is important for those of us just getting started in this to get candid, honest evaluation of what we bring into the ring. Having surrounded ourselves with the Bulldoggers who we have, has given us at least a base by which to build on, and hopefully in the right direction. Often times we do differ in opinion of what is what, and how a judge came up with their decision, but as we grow in the sport, we pit that against what we interpret as the meaning of the standard and what is showing up in the ring.
But I digress,,, of course!
Entering a show, knowing that the judge is knowledgable in the standard and usually does a good job, no matter who, human or canine is in the ring, is what we all strive for. Regrettably, as E posted, there are alot who wouldn't know a topline from a tophat. But somehow they get a large entry, because they are what they are. The economy does have a negative impact on entry numbers, and the fact that a show is within a large amount of Bulldoggers driving range, is something that may, for the forseeable future, continue. Hopefully we happen to have knowledgable judges at them.

Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

I will agree to disagree. I say many do not know basic dog anatomay (as Jay points out) nor do they know or care to know about the standard.

I'm holding to that.

The follow-the-leader phenomenon is merely an indicator of lack of knowledge in many cases. In some instances, it's not that big a deal, the dog is good enough, but there are times when it is not cool, as in the case of the dog who does not deserve to win and also in the case of a better but lesser-known dog totally unable to beat the still nice, but beatable special.

Trust me, those who KNOW the standard and know it well, go out of their way to put on a clinic when they judge. Knowing the standard well is something to be proud of, and many people who I know who do have it down are a joy to watch in the ring.

I think most breeders and judges know the standard however, I don't think the standard matters when you really dig deep down. I remember a story when I was growing up. The Emperor's New Clothes. Everyone knew the Emperor was naked but yet they all said he looked fabulous. I think that applies to showing dogs. I've seen the same dogs win over and over but in my eyes along with many others we see major faults. What judge wants to tell the person they are naked, especially when 50 judges before him said the dog was fabulous... Also I think the brand new people get hurt the worst. When looking for a stud new people will normally go with the dog that has lots of wins and we all know that doesn't necessarily mean that is a great dog. There are lots of things I disagree with in this sport. I think judges shouldn't special dogs. Pick one or the other. No more you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours...Of course I don't think many breeders will come out and say that because they are afraid of making judges mad.. But if it was truly legit it would matter much, would it? We all see and talk about it behind closed doors but no one has the nuggets to say anything.. This is why I think nothing will ever change. Its not because people don't know the standard its because breeders are afraid to tell the Emperor the truth. You don't think we know the front feet shouldn't rub together when they gait? You don't think we notice a dog hacking up every time its in the ring? You don't think we notice a jaw that sticks out by a mile? How about eyes you can't see because of squinting? How many people think 80 pounds is the standard weight? We all see it.. We know the standard..


http://www.rivercitybulldog.com

Harrold and Elizabeth,

You both make great points. I just wanted to interject the fact that I would love for people, in general, to grasp basic canine structure and how it could relate to soundness and movement and how it applies to what The Bulldog Standard describes. Good shoulders or good shoulder layback is applicable in our breed as much as it is in others and that's just one example. How this one feature could affect length of neck, topline, balance and movement is something that I feel applies to our breed as well. I would love for the AKC to have all judges study basic canine structure before they even delve into individual breed standards, to include our very own Bulldog Breeder-Judges.

Regards,
Jay

I agree with this.. however.. there is a difference between minor differences in opinion in the standard versus major disagreements. I can debate the nuances of a group of excellent dogs with people I feel are on a similar level of understanding as me. This is different than talking dogs with someone who just does not see them on the same basic level.
You can recite different aspects of the standard, but if there is a lack of basic entry-level understanding, all the memorization is pointless if it cannot translate to the dog and it's over-all quality.

If a dog that I feel is outstanding (take that for what it's worth) and another judge thinks it is forgettable, we have a problem. Same if I think a dog is marginal and it goes on to win Best in Shows.
This is not a healthy disagreement, this is a breakdown of basic understanding on someone's part.

I personally feel that too few people understand the standard, don't really care to understand it, feel it is more a suggestion than anything else and many people tend to follow a win record instead of the standard in many cases.

e

we do have to remember that everyone had to start somewhere. Took my parents 10 years to finish their first champion. They spent allot of time and money and showed some dogs that were not that good while they learned about the breed. Back then they did not have access to education like you do now, many breeders did not help and they were on their own for the most part. Good news for them, someone finally told them they were doing everything wrong, had all the wrong dogs and it was time to start over. They did and it worked out ok.
But, they loved the shows. That was the bottom line. There will always be dogs with championships that are curious. That's life and dog shows.
e

some things to think about.

But in truth, so few people are in this for the judges opinion anymore (getting more difficult to find true expert judges anymore), it is often more about the win, the number of champions, regardless of quality and how the title was achieved.

But let's face it, it is our hobby. We love the dogs, the shows, our friends. Many shows I go to knowing I have the same chances of winning as if we got a ticket at the door and the judge drew our name out of a hat. Sometimes we can win those. If so, great. Hopefully we are devoting the time and effort to a worthy dog and not just showing an average dog or sending a marginal dog with a handler to accrue a championship that may or may not be deserved, or travel to far away places to win points on dogs that could not win in quality competition (in numbers and quality of dogs). Sometimes it is just going to a show that is close, yes, under a judge that might not be great, but hey, we love to do this.. so....

We all do this for different reasons. I am not so much in it for the win and number of champions, although that is a nice bonus and no one likes to win more than I do. First and foremost I am in this to create beautiful and healthy bulldogs for my own personal enjoyment, whether it is at home admiring their stunning beauty or traveling to shows, to visit old friends, to admire other people's work and to hear feedback on my breeding program from my peers and mentors whose opinions mean more to me than many judges.

Sometimes that feedback alone is worth the entry fees and travel costs, regardless of the quality of judge or if I win or loose..

I always did say I would rather come home with the dog everyone loved than the dog with the ribbon that no one did (except the judge). What good is a ribbon on a dog that is not fantastic? Especially if he somehow beat dogs that were far superior under a judge whose knowledge was shakey at best?
No pride in that, in my opinion.

e

we get very few judges here in NZ who actually know what they are doing. Entering a show is like entering a lucky dip and its a real shame for our breed because less than quality dogs are being put up and novice's using them at stud because they win. I really couldn't give a toss who wins I know the standard and what I like regardless of a judges opinion. Like you I attend for the social side of it now, winning is just a bonus if it happens.

We do have Bas Bosch coming to judge here this month though and I look forward to those results.