thanks e, i went back to teh standard again and read yoru post and think i have it down to proper understanding teh point now

webmaster.
Bulldog gifts, click below
http://www.cafepress.com/bulldogsworld

"so if i read and understood you correctly, the slight fall between the withers and loin, is just that, slight, so based on that theory a true sway backed dog would be a stand out in a line up to most anyone, correct. i mean on the pictures above, its a clear one to see the sway back. so if a dog has this, is it going to take away from them a great deal if there doing well in all other areas, head, jaw, flews, etc".

No, make sure you know the standard for topline; (I don't have time to type it all..)
"There is a slight fall in the back, close behind the shoulders (it's lowest part), whence the spine should rise to the loins...."
The fall is not between the withers and the loin, it is just a small fall right behind the shoulders, before the spine rises.
There are many sway backs in any given line-up at a dog show.. they can win a class if their sway back is not their worse feature. It's like anything else, it depends on the dog, the entry, the judge.
A sway back is not more or less a deterrent than a weak head or a bad rear (as examples). No severe fault like this is ever good. A sway backed dog might be in the ring with a dog with a good body, but the sway back might have the better head, in which case, he should probably win.
It's a complicated issue. Some people would forgive a sway back if the dog were outstanding in every other way, and I suppose it is in the context that you were looking at the dog, as a judge or as a breeder.
e

a dog who is short on leg but who still has a reasonable topline.
e

"if you have a bitch/dog with a bad topline, like a swayback, is that herditary???"

Any feature or combination of features on a dog can be passed on to an offspring.

Swayback defined;
From AKC Complete Dog Book
"Concave curvature of the back line between the withers and the hipbone"

This means it encompasses the entire backline, as pictured below;

Compare with this dog;


From our Standard;
Topline (in part);
"There should be a slight fall in the back, close behind the shoulders......"
Under "back";
"The back should be short and strong......"
Remember that the "back" on a bulldog is not the entire topline but rather the vertebrae between the withers and the loin.
In most other breeds of dog, the vertebrae between the withers and the loin has some length to it.


Here is where you need to focus..... on that description "slight" fall...
If there is a deep fall, and/or the back is long, you will get a "swamp back"

"Swamp back" is an old term used to describe a dog with a "soft spot" behind the withers.
This is what many people call "sway back"
I personally like to differentiate in my mind the difference between the two.
True swaybacks can be short or long.
Swamp backs are typically long in body, as the fall behind the withers is not slight, as the standard requires and often are long in back as well.



"and what determines too much for swaybacks, I mean in reading the standard I don't see that indicated other than swaybacks, like you see with the eyes across from each other with the top of the nose touching the imaginary line does".

It is all in the eye of the beholder, just remember "slight fall" and back is "short and strong". A back that is long and "dippy" behind the shoulders is anything but strong.
e

so if i read and understood you correctly, the slight fall between the withers and loin, is just that, slight, so based on that theory a true sway backed dog would be a stand out in a line up to most anyone, correct. i mean on the pictures above, its a clear one to see the sway back. so if a dog has this, is it going to take away from them a great deal if there doing well in all other areas, head, jaw, flews, etc.

webmaster.
Bulldog gifts, click below
http://www.cafepress.com/bulldogsworld

both of these longer dogs had correct movement, if they had not than I would not have considered breeding them. Movement tells you a lot about structure.

My first "show" bulldog was long, and swaybacked- (not terribly) but noticibly. She was my foundation bitch. I bred her to shorter males than herself. I have had one dog as long as her, which was a son.(he finished) The other breedings they shortened. And 7 generations later, I'm always pleased with length and toplines. IMO, I have found this to be the easiest thing to fix. I would say if it is hereditary, it is easy to fix-bred right.
I do feel that for the most part, sway/long backs go hand in hand.

????? and what point on a standard length bulldog do you define swayback.

webmaster.
Bulldog gifts, click below
http://www.cafepress.com/bulldogsworld

The back is the bridge. My understanding is that it is hereditary and could passed on by her 1st generation or later - or it could be a hybrid recessive popping up. Serious structural faults such as back problems are terribly hard to breed out - I would put aside the thought of considering adding such an individual to any breeding program, IMO. Why start with such a problem? Especially when we should know how important it is to start with a structurally correct bitch to begin with.

Best Regards, Kim

which is about 2 hrs before my normal time

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

i have not seen a cobby dog with a sway back, but i have been a cobby dog with a hump back.

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

I have seen coby Bulldogs that are swaybacked...

Toplines IMO are a combo of things..its the overall structure of the dog that makes a topline and IMO a very important feature of the Bulldog. But when reading the standard when is it too much..
ie...rear legs higher set..well how high...? so my guess if its too high when they start to look swaybacked...

front legs.. we often see some too short on front legs...again making them swaybacked...

now movement, IMO if the dog is really swaybacked I dont think you get correct movement..

so toplines IMO should be important when breeding..and swaybacked definitly not something I would want to double up on or consider using for a bitch that was mine...heriditary..yes!
just my two newbie cents on this one.....

you have been a cobby dog with a hump back??????????lol.... sounds painful!

webmaster.
Bulldog gifts, click below
http://www.cafepress.com/bulldogsworld