Here's my Butkus-this photo was taken back in October I think-he is bigger now. He is pretty lean and fairly agile-
Laura

you have a picture of him you could post? I'd love to see a boy that weight with no fat!! I have one.. he can out gait me.. I'm just curious. thanks


kristie

of course I remember his photo!! I like him, and think he's in perfect shape! I'm not into tubbies lol. stunning markings as well!!!


kristie

might as well be thrown out the window in the US. Most judges do not abide by it. My little male was 55 lbs the entire time he showed. I was told by several judges he was too small-ok he's too small-compared to what-the 80 pounder you just put up?? He finally finished but sometimes he was the smallest dog in the open class. The judges that told us he was too small or we seen were consistently putting up those huge dogs, got no more of my money. Now I need to go back and see who those judges were-I have a 65-70 lb boy we are showing and he has not one ounce of fat, he is all bone and mass, but still above standard weight.
Laura

When we first started attending dog shows(as spectators for about a year or so before we got our first show dog) I had the pleasure and priviledge to talk to many people, some exhibitors, some other spectators and some judges. I sat next to a Corgi judge one day and I couldn't make heads or tails of what the judge in the ring was looking for. The judge that particular day was all over the place. Some dogs had good heads and awful fronts, some had nice gait but little heads, it was just hard to tell what she was looking for. The Corgi judge sitting next to me put it in a way I could understand. She told me the hardest thing in the world for a judge to judge is mediocre. She said that when they have a whole ring full of mediocre its very difficult and the judge has to start weighing the strengths on each dog against the others. She said tho when that one dog comes in the ring that is very nice-it stands out from all the others and the judge will hardly be able to take their eyes off it. It made me understand the point system better and realize what it was there for.
Laura

I think the last paragraph says it well... many people admire a dog thats winning regardless of whether it conforms or not. It wins, therfore they assume it must be good and then breed to it like crazy in hopes they will get one that wins too.

My favorite question that for some reason makes people mad is to ask why did you choose that particular dog as a stud. I am interested in how they perceive what ever dog they chose and what they think the strong points are, besides who knows, maybe one day that dog might be in my considerations for stud and you can learn alot from other people.

E- Thanks! for as you put it, shoving the standard down our throats... I always enjoy the perspective and usually take away at least one new point to consider from the discussions. Keep doing it please.

I could care less if I walk out with the ribbon or the points. If I feel my bulldog is a worthy specimen and representation of the breed I will show regardless of the politics.
It is up to every person to breed correct and show correct.
It is up to the long time breeders not to special what is not special!!
Breeders have a responsibility not to play the political games just to get titles on dogs that should not be winning.
You shake hands and make friends with judges and for what? A ribbon? A title? A stud that is over used and throwing the same faults?
We need to be honest with ourselves. Better to sit out of the ring for a while and wait for a truly deserving specialty winner.
Lets be honest with ourselves.

I think many of us know the standard quite well, but also am keenly aware than many more do not, even people who should. I know it by heart, but I teach it, so no mystery there. The document is not something that is kept under lock and key, we all have access to it. I think these boards have opened people's eyes to it however (yes, I know I shove it down people's throats all the time).
It is difficult to tell people not to admrire a dog that is very incorrect but who is winning all the time. I have yet to find a remedy for that or an answer as to why it wins in the first place. And I am not talking a few faults on a nice dog, I am talking dogs that are totally wrong for the breed before you even look at the details.
e

I have to agree with you a bit Rod. It doesnt always happen, but it does seem to happen more than it should. I have only been around going on 8 years now, so I am still a relative newby too and it is frusterating and confusing at the same time for those trying to learn. I have read, re-read and studied the standard in hopes of breeding towards it. I have asked lots of questions, looked at lots of dogs, read and studied alot of pedigrees looking for patterns/traits in the lines and trying to do it objectively.

We were at a specialty show this fall and there was a particular bitch that won and I really didnt understand why. She was cute as far as bulldogs go, but I really couldnt see the draw to her. She appeared narrow in the front, lacked any brisket and she converged ALOT when she gated. She was relatively flat backed. She did have a lovely arch to her neck and a nice lower set tail. Her bone was fine and she was a touch long. Nothing was really excessively faulted as far as the body went, but it just lacked overall correctnes in type.

The thing that bothered me the most was her head. I made a point to look at the bitch and touch her after she finished showing in case there was something I couldnt tell just by looking at her. Sometimes looks can be deceiving I know. When I held her head it was only about an inch and a half to two inches wide at the jaw and was in the shape of a wedge. The length of skull was lacking and the nose was perpendicular. I liked her less after touching her. This was winners bitch at a specialty and there were some really pretty bitches there. She was bred by a breeder judge.

Over the years, being relatively new, I have questioned if I had any real idea what a bulldog was supposed to look like. Esp after attending shows where long time breeder judges put up dogs that looked like this one. I was glad that a couple other people asked me what I thought of her because in the converstaion we all learned we werent crazy and that we had the same view of this bitch. There were many nice bitches at the show, many more deserving examples of our standard did exist at this show. And just in case you were wondering, No I wasnt showing a bitch, so I wasnt mad that I lost. I wasnt even entered in the show at all. I stopped showing to that particular judge after watching him make questionable decisions at two previous shows.

I have a couple of standard size boy's :o ) They will be a year old in a few days and are at 52 lbs. We haven't brought them out yet cause I just feel they weren't mature enough to compete. I also wonder how well they will do when I do bring them out cause they look out of place with larger dogs in the ring. I'm not so much hung up on the weight of the dogs as long as the dog looks balanced .

Margie

http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/

http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs

I talked to Flo about this she had been in this breed for 92 years she said this is the standard and until it is changed this is what we refer to. I asked what do you do when all the dogs do not fit the standard she then said I am forced to judge dog against dog. She said when you get the dogs to large they could of never fit under the legs of the bull. Her feelng was the dogs were getting way to big loosing type. The judges now a days do not see the standard dogs but do the best with what the breeders give them.
I know when I was showing I gave a judge 3 chances, as compitition changes in the ring. I had a standard bitch I put 116 Best of Breeds on. So never give up on breeding to the standard. Kim

Kim, no disrespect intended.. I have read the standard and could recite 75% of it back to you. I will admit that the point system escapes me most of the time thou.. I think allot of newcomers like myself (4-6 years) are the same way in knowing it. Unfortunately the standard isn't always the type that is winning in the ring. I chalk that up the breeder/judges that have been around the block a few times that prefer to give the ribbons to the folks they know with the so-so dogs over a standard...It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.. I was just talking to someone who has been around since the 60's and they were explaining gait to me... He said the front legs should come in slightly...(?) I don't recall seeing that anywhere... But who am I to argue, he's been around a long time and consistently wins...... 75 pounds, short face, flat topline, gaiting with the front legs slightly in, with a horrible layback, is winning at specialties under the judges who are seasoned.. hum.. Again, I think most of the newer folks know the standard.. Maybe some of the people that have been doing this longer than I've been alive need to re-look the standard over...I went to Nationals in hope of finding a standard dog and came home disappointed.. Who's fault is that really?

look at last years top 10 to see some very incorrect dogs that are winning. Even BIS.

I just can't get past the frog faces and the lack of width and upturn of jaw. Yet we see breeder judges using these dogs as their BISS dogs and I wonder what I'm readin so incorrectly in the standard. They look nothing like the picture of our standard dog. Head type is wrong, topline is wrong, and many are not barrel shape but slab sided lacking rib and brisket.

I read the standard, I re-read the standard and I'm still scratching my head.

Maybe they are putting more emphasis on the body and balance then the head or the overall picture with nothing outstanding (average)in my mind.

the conclusion of the show to critique your dog

You have a very nice dog but i need to put more weight on him. He weighed 53lbs.

I am new to all of this, but is it taboo to ask the judge what was it about that particular dog/bitch that gave them the nod to win? Is it inpolite to ask them when was the last time they read the standard and what do they think of the calibur of bulldogs being shown in relation to the standard? Just because they have numerous years behind them, does that mean they stop reviewing the standard? I am sure they judge other breeds in other groups, maybe they forget and don't really know them 100% by memory. I would think that like any other judging profession they would give a candid interview on their opinion of a particular dog.
I also have a sick sense that subjective judging is flawed and biased just like figure skating and gymnastics used to be. What is the real scoop of dog shows and winning, any money change hands??? I would like to think not and just show my dog. Great topic of discussion, curious to read more opinions.
Cheers.

Sean-New Owner
Edins Blanca Tonka
4 months, 26 pounds

the standard

and just about know it back to front

When Flo was with us she made the comment that breeders would use a bitch to breed that had 3 glaring faults she felt these were pets but they continued to breed and she would see the pups and they never corrected any fault. She said you never stop teaching because if just one person understands you, have done your job for the Bulldog.
Kim

www.movieanimals
myspace.com/movieanimals.

and will always remember, the judges see so many dogs who do not fit the standard, they have no idea what a bulldog looks like who does fit the standard. When they do, they look so different then what is linned up next to them, the judge thinks they are wrong.


Im also at the point that people read the standard and mold the standard to their dogs vs their dogs to the standard.

I made this comment to another bulldogger a few months ago.


Are we breeding to the standard? or are we changing the way we read the standard to fit the way our dogs look? (it was something like that)

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

http://langagerbulldogs.tripod.com

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