I am a newbie, but I've been in the ring enough to know that how my dog performs in the ring has nothing to do with his breeding potential or ability. I think the thing that is bothersome with your statement is that you make it seem like ring success is "required" before you breed. Maybe that was not your connotation.

Dogs should be shown for fun, not to chart out your breeding program. Certainly, giving your dog a bath, clipping his nails, then walking him around the ring on a lead is not going to make him a better dog, conformation-wise.

Of course, if you buy a really fancy lead, wear really nice clothes and hold your dog's jaw properly on the ramp - you might win a blue ribbon. At least that's what I keep telling myself.

Lastly, who knows - maybe the best bulldog conformation wise is laying on a couch somewhere, is fed cheesburgers by his owner and has a pedigree littered with non-champions.

but any "telling" me or "thinking" there dog is good is not enough for me to allow any of my stock to be bred with it. Without being proven in the ring and x rayed I wouldn't let any of my dogs/bitches be bred with someone's bully who they "think" is wonderful.

Each to their own of course and we all have our own opinions. IMO Breeders who don't show and x ray aren't in it for the right reasons.

"This lends more to kennel blindness than it does for folks like me who breed to please myself first, the judges second.'

so true, so true!
When I finally decided on a stud for Mia many were stunned. He was not in the top 10 rankings. Well so what. I knew he could provide something we lacked. Thats was proven in his get and that is what i wanted. Weather or not the pups ended up in the ring was the last of my worries. I just wanted my dog to get one step closer to becoming what i think is correct. Unfortunalty often in breeding you may get one step closer and take 2 steps back in other areas! LOL! So i can see how many dogs do not make it in the ring but are still very nice examplesof the breed.

I actually evaluated a bitch for a show person recently because they wanted to use thier stud dog. The bitches pedigree was nothing. She is not shown but I will tell ya what she could be and would likely finish. She has beautiful rib spring, brisket,topline and a head to die for. Vey nice layback for just a pet.

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Just because a dog is winning doesnt make him a great dog. What a dog puts in the box make him a good or great stud dog. I like being able to look at a dog and say wow, that dog is out of so and so, you can see it in the dogs/bitches on the ground.

I believe more champions are on the couch at home vs in the ring.

:D

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

http://langagerbulldogs.tripod.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

I have to respectfully disagree with you Louise . Our foundation bitch only went in the ring once but she had allot of qualities that factored into our decision to breed her.
No she wasn't a champion but we all started some place . When bred to the right dog in hopes of producing better .

Her first breeding produced 4 puppies , 2 m / 2 f , we kept and showed 3 of the 4 get.

Our male we kept was BCA National Winners Dog 2005 at just under a year old with I believe 136 other dogs present. He needs a major to finish.

Litter-mate sister 1. placed 3rd & 4th in her large class 2 years in a row , 2 Specialty majors under long time respected breeder judges before she was 2 years of age. She received a 5 pt major at an all breed show and was 1 pt away from finishing when she took time off to become a mom her self . Her first time back in the ring she finished her Championship with major number 4 . Her first show out as a new champion she took a Best In Specialty .

Litter-mate sister 2. who hasn't been shown often has a 5 pt Specialty major , a few major reserves , she is more then half way to completing her championship.

Litter-mate brother completed his Canadian Championship with group placements .

My intent here isn't to brag but rather to show you that just because a dog/bitch wasn't shown and hasn't been proven in the ring doesn't mean they can't produce those that can. I'm not kennel blind , my dogs have their faults and I'm their worst critic. But I am focused on where I want to go with our breeding's,I can only hope that I can improve on the next generation.




Margie

http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/

http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs

I don't think my dogs are perfect!! I try my hardest to see there faults, if i don't how could i ever improve? consistancy depending on the judgeing, I don't find alot of judging consistant at all.... I spend from moring to night sitting ring side. I try and get a feel for what the judge is putting up in all breeds. Some I can say there a movement judge, some heads, some overall balance, some theres no rime or reason to anything they do all day every breed. I make note of this and mark them in my little book! lol my mom breeds a different breed of dog, a few were never shown for some reason, but contributed to a long end result, huge winners limited showing, and I couldn't even tell you what those wins were cause i NEVER hear her mention them!!


kristie

kennel blindness is not something I have a problem with. I am more comfortable with the "look" of my bloodline, but am keenly aware of what they need to be competative.
Again, many very poor dogs have finished their championships. This lends more to kennel blindness than it does for folks like me who breed to please myself first, the judges second. I think those who breed to please what they think the judges will go for end up swimming in circles, become kennel blind to their own dogs via their show record only and never strive to improve.
e

we all think our dogs are the best and rightly so, because to us, they are. The ring is one way of getting past this.Dogs worthy of being bred are not those who "just" make it to championship status. A good dog/bitch will be consistent in the ring.

"I would not hesitate to breed to a dog who was not shown, but to my own evaluation offers qualities I might be looking for"

I totally agree... I have some friends who only look at top winners as stud prospects.. not if the dogs compliment each other. Or keep breeding to the same faults because they're only consentraining on one aspect, not the overall combination. I plan on finishing every thing I bred but I'm new and will be for along time. I feel the more I see good or bad at dogs shows is all just a learning process. I think that good breeders will show and finish most of there dogs, If a breeder of 20 years never puts one dog in the ring I'd wonder though. love all the posts!


kristie

I would and have bred dogs that did not finish their CH titles and did it without hesitation. I also paid the same stud fee I would have for a CH titled dog to do so. There are alot of nice dogs out there that did not finish for one reason or another.

One male I used won sweeps at specialties and was major pointed. His owner has had serious health concerns for several years and in the midst of his prime, she was in and out of the hospital and couldnt show the dog. Her illness kept her out of the ring for a couple of years and by then, he was pushing 5 and it finishing him wasnt a priority. Still a good dog that had what I needed who served my bitch well.

I am hoping for puppies now out of a bitch I love. Her big faults are her topline is lacking and her layback is thrown off since her nose sits somewhere between perpendicular and correct. Couple this with a non-flashy dark brindle and the specialty judges see the two faults and pass on her and the all-breeders dont know what to think of her because she has rib, she has a chest, and she isnt short faced or narrow jawed. Oh yah, and the long tail throws them off too. I actually had one ask me why I failed to dock her tail. I am certain that if she carries well and delivers she will produce nicely for me and I cant wait. She doesnt have a single point. I still think she is extremely worthy of being bred. Oh and as a side note that thrills me with her, this girl has leaped onto the hood of a parked 4WD SUV.

then Bulldogs would probably be extinct , just look at some of the great dogs in the UK.

Margie

http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/

http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs

If you go on akc.org click on complete breed list then click on bulldogs scroll down and there is a scale of points. If you see the 5 point features these are important to judges when they put the whole bulldog together.A good book is The New Complete Bulldog by Colonel Bailey C Hanes I was given this by my breeder.

"but IMO unless they are proven in the ring they shouldn't be given the chance to produce anything JMHO"


But when you look at how many sub-par dogs are proven in the ring, this arguement does not hold water to me. I have dogs here who showed, won but did not finish their championship. I would not hold them back from breeding, and in fact did not, because of that. I go by the dog, not the show record. It is my observation that the show records are more important to some people than the dogs themselves. I would not hesitate to breed to a dog who was not shown, but to my own evaluation offers qualities I might be looking for. There are many reasons why some dogs are not shown that have nothing to do with their conformation or breeding ability.
e

but IMO unless they are proven in the ring they shouldn't be given the chance to produce anything JMHO

points are not a good system to judge because we can get a very average-to- poor speciment and find no glaring faults. The only ones who should really utilize the point scale is a judge in a situation where the end result is very close in competion. This is my opinion. But I know for a fact, due to the fact that I see it happen so often is that in counting faults, or looking for them, the viewer often misses the entire picture.
I see so many people admire dogs for lack of faults, when in fact the dog was entirely boring and untypical for the breed. I have also seen some serious heart throbs who have a glaring fault. The better dog might loose out in a point-scale-only competition if the person counting the points were not well versed in the breed.
I myself would breed any decent animal from my bloodline provided he or she was healthy. Championship is not important, but certain aspects of the dog are. Some pet quality dogs I would consider breeding and some I would not. It is very individual and so much of it is "gut instinct" with me.
Remember this is with my own bloodline. I would not go out and get a bitch of average or less quality for breeding from another bloodline. There would be no point to that. Sounds contrary I know, but I have not had a problem breeding animals of my own breeding that did not get shown. I will say however, that my standards for show quality might be different than someone else's.
As far as picking stud dogs? So much of it depends on what he produces and not so much on what he looks like. I think another reason the breed is becoming so average in quality is that everyone is overly concerend with what the stud dog looks like rather than what he can produce, and if they do look at his get, they look more at wins than of the quality of the dogs themselves.
e