Need help with a bad situation
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Need help with a bad situation
Submitted by desirabull on April 20, 2010 - 9:44pmOur bitch was out with a handler and earned 12 pts (2 of them 5 point majors) her first couple of weeks out in June. There was a problem with the first major.... Our bitch won but the handler's other client bitch was shown in place of our bitch (also shown in the wrong class), and got credit for our bitch's 5 pts. She did not want AKC contacted correct this problem so her other client bitch could keep that major. She said this was because our bitch Lydia would be much quicker to finish than her other client bitch would be. She promised to make this up to us and put her other major on her for FREE. AKC was eventually called and she then made statements to indicate she would not fulfill the deal to put her other major on her free (i.e.: I would have finished her for free), as a result of that action. It is my understanding, AKC has made the ruling that the judge would not change his books because it showed our bitch, who was entered in open that day but shown in Am bred, did not even place. And our handler was not wearing an armband in the win photo. So this resulted in the other client bitch, who was shown in open and DID NOT even place, is getting to keep a wrongfully received 5 point major. By this time our ex-handler had gathered up 3 open bitch clients, so it was clear that she was not going to fulfill the deal to put our bitch's other major on her for free, which at this point was all she needed and would finish her. On Monday, a voice mail was received that the owners of the bitch who had won RWB the day in question had called our handler and "threatened her" (as she says), to contact AKC themselves and try to get the major that was rightfully theirs since our bitch Lydia would not be getting those points. Our handler said, in light of this, that she was not releasing our bitch to us until the final invoice was paid. Normally an invoice is due in 30 days and I would think anyone would have a right to dispute charges before paying if they thought something was not right. We had a couple of issues with our final invoice, felt that we we being overcharged on expenses and then being charged at a show that had made majors (but didn't hold), after she had originally promised to put that last major on her for free. So, our bitch was being held hostage and an email was sent out detailing the handler's intent to sue us because I had emailed her to bring up concerns with the final invoice. A copy of that email is below: To: rascott@usmo.com; Ricklmouser@worldnet.att.net; jennie@fidnet.com I am formally making your aware that Jennie Brandon is refusing to pay for Lydia's July/August invoice and is demanding that the bitch be returned w/o payment.... If such an action is legally pursued I will have no choice but to file civil suit against the owners of said bitch... Another threatening email that was sent that day is below: Jennie, I know you got my phone call and previous email.... You need to call me today or there are going to be serious legal reprocussions. Various threatening voice mails were left as well. Now, we have our bitch back but she is not in great condition to show. She has very dry hair, is missing a lot of hair, hair is coming out in the clumps, and she has sores and scabs all over. She is also a little underweight. We are left wondering what our options are in that she will not return emails answering any questions and that now we are left with our bitch seeking that last major and having to pay all of the expenses ourselves, whereas if she would not have messed up and showed another client bitch in our class, she would be a new champion right now. No effort has been made to do the right thing and resolve this matter on her behalf. Threats to destroy friendships and personal lives have been made as well, especially if we go public with this matter. After going thru a travesty such as this, we want to do the right thing and let others know. When you hire a handler, you are the client and that handler should follow your wishes. In addition, we were made aware that our bitch was not shown one day she was entered at a small show in Ohio. Our handler left a voice mail saying our bitch had "shown fine, but did not place". Later she called demanding why rumors were going around that she said she had shown our bitch when she didn't. She said she didn't mean to leave that voice mail saying she didn't show her and was sorry she did. She didn't show her because she "would not have won", and had "broken out in hives and her side was bloody". These incidents, as well as having a number of people inform us that she was badmouthing her client dogs, including our dogs, led us to the decision to end the relationship with our handler. Can anyone give us advice on what to do with this situation?? I am on my way out to take Lydia to the vet, and look forward to seeing your responses once I am home. Thank you!
For the record..
Jay,
A question was asked seeking advice by an owner dealing with a particular situation regarding A.K.C. and with their own personal negative experiences with a handler. I fail to see where any names were mentioned.
It will be a sad day for the sport IMO if A.K.C. rules to allow a bitch, who did not place at a show, to keep a 5 point major due to an error by a handler showing two client bitches in the wrong class.
Dennis
MyToy Bulldogs
www.mytoybulldogs.com
http://www.mytoybulldogs.com
Sam,
You're right, this should have ideally been dealt with between the owner and the handler and NOT aired out on these boards. Again, the AKC will have the final say and it appears that they've already made their decision along with the judge in question.
Jay
MyToyBulldogs
http://www.mytoybulldogs.com
Personally
I feel that the topic is a learning experience for many people. Sorta like a buyer beware. When an injustice as severe as this one is, imo is a detriment to the breed and the sport. If I ate at a restaurant and received horrible service and bad food....I certainly would make it known not only to my friends but also the better business borough. This person calls themselves a professional....it is one thing to make the mistake but another to attempt to cover it up. There is no excuse for the action...it happened and we have to all hope this person learned from it and will never attempt to do it again. I am glad Jay that you agree it should have been handled right away.
Kelly
Kelly Franz
BCA HOF Breeder
www.imperiousbulldogs.com
Sam
Sam,
You're right, this should have ideally been dealt with between the owner and the handler and NOT aired out on these boards. Again, the AKC will have the final say and it appears that they've already made their decision along with the judge in question.
Jay
WOW
Well....I am sure most of us that have shown multiple dogs,have at some point went into the ring with the wrong armband.I am also sure that the majority of the time it was noticed and was an honest mistake.The problem is not with the armband number or the wrong dog in the ring.It is my opinion the "cover up" is the true issue here.We are all held to an ethical standard by the AKC and equally as important,as memebers of the Bulldog Club of America and our local clubs.I respectfully disagree with Jay,as I beleive that it is our responsibility to the breed to address an issue such as this.This ideally should be taken care of by the handler and the dog owner.As with golf,I think it is our responsibility to "police" ourselves.I also beleive that we as owner handlers should do this,but I also beleive that as a professional handler,it is imperative that you be "professional" at all times.I think because you are being paid(often by several clients)that your standards have to be impecable.The majority of time the actual owner of the dog being shown isn't present,so the "trust" that the handler is showing the dog to the best of it's ability and in a professional manner is critical.
I am not taking sides on this issue, as I do know both parties,as with situations like this,there is my story,your story and the "right" story which usually falls somewhere in between the two.Let's just try to do right by the dogs!
I meant to add
that this handler was stopped from doing this same thing at a South Dakoda dog show the week end after the show where Jennie's bitch lost her points to a bitch that belonged to another client.
Steve & Jennifer Terry stopped her from pulling it that week end. Same mistake? or one that had worked the week before? No one knows but her.
Randy
Re: Sam
Jay
Just because AKC or the judge goes along does not make this handlers actions right! Nothing about unethical decisions is right no matter how you try to color your friends choice's... and this does not take into account the supposed condition she returned the dog in or the fact that she threatened to SUE an AKC judge based on the actions of Jennie Brandon. Everyone in the country thinks highly of Donna Mouser!
People have a right to know when this handler is asking for the public to entrust her with their dogs.
Randy
Kelly please read
would you give me a call 678-794-5683
Absolutely right Jay...but IF the story is as it is presented...
and I don't personally know any body involved in this mess nor do I particularly want to know all the characters in this foible, I would assume the AKC would be the agency to step in, correct what they can and either award the points to the bitch that was ACTUALLY WB or to the RWB if they cannot settle on who was WB that day beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Sigh...showing should be fun and honest and we should all be supportive of each other and not try to trick anyone...very naive view of the world I guess as the dog show world is a microcosm reflective of the rest of the larger world...Sigh 
It is sad to think that this could happen or that people would try to continue with a cover up making what might have been an initially 'ooops' innocent mistake and making it into a scam or 'illegal & unethical'.
It is also sad that the poor bully ended up suffering...may have had nothing to do with how she was treated....perhaps she was sensitive to the stress involved in the situation...bullies can be rather sensitive creatures for all their external silliness!
Lorraine
If only I was as good a person as my dogs seem to think I am!
Find us on:
www.karismakennels.com
legal rulings and honesty
don't always travel the same paths.
Hopefully, there will be a day that "getting away with it" won't be an acceptable defense in our breed at any level.
http://www.pbase.com/bullpooches
WOW What a mess !
Sorry to hear this Jennie . Something similar happened to us when we first started showing , 2 puppy bitches in the same class and Jeff gave Destiny the wrong arm band. The first day Destiny took reserve with Bebe, the second day Jeff took reserve with Tecko with the correct arm band. We noticed the mix up and went over to the show secretary to try to fix it.From then on we always write the dogs name on the back .
I can understand making the initial mistake but it should have been corrected when it was first discovered. I can't believe AKC isn't awarding the points to the reserve bitch .
I hope you can get this all worked out
Margie
http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/
http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs
Paula
Paula,
Again, this is NOT my business and I think I've made my point.
I'm finished with this.
Jay
The point of concern for me is this
Jen posted,
(She did not want AKC contacted correct this problem so her other client bitch could keep that major. She said this was because our bitch Lydia would be much quicker to finish than her other client bitch would be. She promised to make this up to us and put her other major on her for FREE.)
Anyway to defend that Jay? It pops the integrity issue hard. That concerns me the most. Betsy Love is playing games. Paula
Paying Attention
Gail,
I pay attention to the dogs that I have and I worry about what needs to be done. I've learned that the rest of it is immaterial. I show the dogs and keep it enjoyable for myself and that's it.
Jay
Re: Integrity
Dennis,
As I said before, this is not my business.
But, I do know that accidental errors in documenting the correct armband number in the judge's book have been made before and the wrong dogs have won the points. This is why I always check the sheets after I win something to make sure that the correct armband number for my dog was written down.
I don't know the specifics and I don't need to know the specifics of this matter. I just looked at it from a perspective that if the person in question was you or I or anyone, I would hope that people would stop and look at it and think about what exactly occurred before making any judgements. It's not my place to make judgements about situations that really don't concern me. After all, the AKC has the final say as to which bitch gets the points regardless of what anyone says or feels.
Jay
Absolutely
Thanks Dennis.
Nationals is right around the corner, and in my own Division this year. The things that have been plauging the forums lately makes me wonder if the convention center floor will have a big line drawn through it to divide sides.
Very disturbing.
http://www.pbase.com/bullpooches
Integrity
Jay,
The integrity of the sport is in question, when situations like this arise. It is pure and simple point fraud. This should concern everyone. One day an error such as this could happen to you and I am sure you would hope it would be made right.
If you were reserve winners bitch at a show where something such as this happened then would you not file a complaint? If the dog that honestly won the major is not allowed to keep it's win due to an error by the handler then the Reserve Winners should receive the win. That is why a Reserve Winners is awarded in case the actual winner is not allowed to keep the points for what ever reason.
If it is true that a handler tried to talk the owners of the dog who honestly won the major to keep quiet then that is completely unethical IMO.
Dennis
MyToy Bulldogs
www.mytoybulldogs.com
http://www.mytoybulldogs.com
Vicky,
What should people come forward about that doesn't concern them? Why should anyone have to pay any attention to what is going on with others that don't concern them?
You know me, I show up, do my thing and maybe chat with people I like and I'm gone. I don't get paid to pay attention to others.
Jay
Re: About What?
Most of the exhibitors don't get paid, period. But I'd say that most of them are paying attention to a number of things while they're at a show, and that's not necessarily a "bad" thing.
http://www.pbase.com/bullpooches
Atleast the person who was responsible for the dog/bitch
should come foward and send a letter to correct the problem. I do not know if this was done, i sure hope it was.
If not it is very very unethical, i can not see anyone thinking it was ok. I also can say most of the people if not all, i show around and with, would be upfront and help resolve the situation.
Vicky
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
About What?
Vicky,
What should people come forward about that doesn't concern them? Why should anyone have to pay any attention to what is going on with others that don't concern them?
You know me, I show up, do my thing and maybe chat with people I like and I'm gone. I don't get paid to pay attention to others.
Jay
i know and they should come forward
JMO
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
Vicky
Vicky,
There were lots of people at that show.
Jay
what i posted above is what i was told
when a person i know could have been suspended, everyone was a bit freaked at what could happen.
Yes 2 sides to every story, but how do you bring in the wrong dog when they dont even look the same. Take a picture of the dog, give the number to the photographer, tell the breeders & owners you will make it good.
THis is not something i would want to be associated. Remember i was treated guilty due to association in the past, not something i want to do again.
YOu would think all who was at the show where this error took place that all parties would come forward to help fix the problem vs not and covering it up. Doesnt look good for anyone at the show where the "error" took place.
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
Exactly What I Mean
David,
That's exactly what I mean. I don't care about what happened and it's none of my business anyway. I just know that anyone that feels that it is their business should know the FACTS before coming to any conclusions.
Jay
i'd sure liek to hear that side
i mean based on some strong things said, and stuff, i would sure like to hear it,
webmaster.
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Two Sides To Every Story
We all know that there are two sides to every story.
To speculate on a situation without knowing all the FACTS is not right. A person's reputation and a person's right to earn a living is on the line and it would be prudent for anyone interested to understand that before jumping to any conclusions.
I'm positive that the AKC will make their final decision, if they haven't already, about the matter concerning the dog show.
Jay
Suspention, AKC can suspend the handler
and go back to the date, any points put on any dogs the handler owns/co-owns or handles will loose any points awarded.
Aslo any litter sired by a stud owned or co-owned by the suspended party will not be registered if the breeding was done during the suspention. This goes for puppies born or breed during the suspntion. I think the can be registered after the suspention is done but the points are gone.
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
what about the points
woudl that be a issue to, for all the dogs, which would mess up even more, ?
webmaster.
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I am obviously failing to understand fully the AKC position if y
a win picture from a photographer that was obviously not the other client's bitch. Whether the AKC would or would not credit you with the win b/c of the picture, I don't know...but they certainly should not give credit to the wrong bitch...I guess the AKC can't go be the photographer as they could have taken a picture of the wrong bitch. It would seem that the handler is the one who should incur the penalty and suspension of a few months of privileges as well as other potential litigation.
I find the RWB with at least a compelling argument that no one is contesting that her bitch did get reserve winners with no one trying to contradict that fact so if there is contention as to who was truly WB, then RWB would be the one to whom the points might go.
This is apalling behavior and should be investigated by the AKC representative further as the handler seems to be the shady, tricky one in this whole deal.
I am so sorry your bitch came back to you in bad shape...this was not her fault in anyway and she has suffered quite a bit it seems, poor girl. She shows her heart out and then ends up a wreck.
AKC suspends people for falsifying records of puppies or signing someone else's name fraudulently, you would think some kind of penalty w/in the AKC should be merited to warn other handlers of 'tricky business dealing'. This wouldn't get your bitch back her major or her hair but at least there would be some justice done.
This is horrible!
Lorraine
If only I was as good a person as my dogs seem to think I am!
Find us on:
www.karismakennels.com
Re: Need help with a bad situation
Do you have pictures of how your girl was returned to you? Boy this breaks all the rules... you could of been fined by AKC at the least for knowledge of this crime. Good Luck and what a mess...
Terri
MyToyBulldogs
http://www.mytoybulldogs.com
what bothers me here is that if i read it right
its clear intent to cheat and defraud a situation, not an accident? based on how i read yoru posts, which is not cool at all!!!!
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wow, going after some big breeders
it's going to be the end of the handler with this type of actions.
Jeannie, Karen & the Mousers, get legal you have the backing and the money to do so, this should have been corrected by the handler right away not trying to make champion out of a dog who is not deserving. THe owner of the bitch who got the points should also belly up and make it right.
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
yes
Yes that's the way it happened. It's my co-owned bitch also.
Our bitch won the 5 pt major and it was assigned to the other handlers clients bitch due to being shwon in the wrong classes with the wrong armbands. Mistakes could happen. But we tried to get it straightened out with AKC. It appears the bitch that gets to keep the points never placed in the wrong class at all. So the bitch that gets the points wasn't even the reserve. We hope that if we can't have the points it should go to the reserve bitch.
The handler told jennie that she would put the other major or lost major on her for free.
I asked the handler even before we got our dog back when she was going to finish her?
She has not answered me. Insisted that it be paid or we wouldn't get our dog back. We had some ? and disputes about out bill. The handler insisted on more than we thought was correct.
am i understanding this correctly????
the dog that won (your dog) is not teh one that got the points? due to some strange things by the handler???
webmaster.
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wow
I understand most of this (Im not a show person) but it sounds very wrong. Could it possibly help if others that were competing that day, and knew it was the wrong bitch, sent letters or made calls? Wouldn't pictures of both bitches prove she had the wrong bitch in? Can you file a formal complaint with the AKC against this handler? Sound very underhanded on her part.
I hope webbie will allow you to post the name of this handler so others can think twice about using her.
It's a shame and I am sorry for what you have been/are going through. At least your girl is home and away from her.
Sue
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