I found this post on another site while reading old posts by one of my mentors Linda Stonehocker. Very interesting article. Be sure to read the follow up post by Linda, very thought provoking as always. Linda was a treasure...
Ward
Selecting A Stud Dog
by Linda Stonehocker
This article appears in the The Bulldogger, Number 103, March 2003:
"Looking Back-submitted by Mickie Brown-BCA History Committee Chairperson
Carolyn Rogers Horne passed away last November, just short of her 100th birthday. She was an owner, breeder, exhibitor and judge of Bulldogs. She and her husband, Robert were notably remembered thru Hobbyhorne Cinnamon, dam of nine American bred champion Bulldogs. According to friends, Ch Hobbyhorne Cintorson (Chug) was her most notable champion, doing his winnings in the 1940s and 50s. Bob Horne was the first National Treasurer when BCA was re-organized in 1950. The following article was first published in the 1952 BCA Yearbook:
SELECTING A STUD DOG-By Carolyn R. Horne
There is no infalible recipe for breeding a champion Bulldog, nor even an excellent one, if the breeder expects immediate success. Progressive betterment of a breed is based in long years of serious study, practical experience and endless patience, in spite of frequent set-backs. But the disappointments are the very ingredients which make success a thrilling and treasured experience. The fascination of attempting to raise good Bulldogs lies in its difficulties.
These facts would make the outlook seem very discouraging for a novice breeder but, fortunatley, many predecessors have paved the way for his travels toward better Bulldogs. The veterans warmly welcome the intelligent novice, he is the young blood which they need to improve upon their own efforts.
Breeders who have followed their hobby for several years develop their own theories and plans, based on their study and experience. That is what makes them truly breeders. They are making their individual contributions, through their own dogs, to the improvement of the breed. Their program is established. So my thoughts are offered merely to help the novice who wants to get started. He feels handicapped by his lack of knowledge and background, and just how does he begin?
The average tyro alreay owns a bitch. It would be quite wonderul if this bitch had been wisely and carefuly purchased with mating in mind, but-let's face it!-more probably she has been a mere pet which faned a spark of Bulldog interest into a conflagration of breeding enthusiasm. That seems to be the manner in which many Bulldog breeders, are born; present writer not excepted! We fervently hope that your bitch is promising material for a desirable brood matorn. Your bitch is the basis of all your future efforts. A wise builder does not erect an expensive house upon a weak and rotten foundation, for he know that all his time, labor and money will be lost in total collapse.
Do not hesitate to seek advice from experienced and successful breeders, they are glad to lend a helping hand. If the consensus of their opinion is "don't breed her," swallow your disappointment and realize that they saved you from many bitter future disappointments. Carrry on your breeding aspirations with something which promises real pride of achievement. Naturally, your first interview will be with the breeder of your bitch. They are probably familiar with the weakness and strength of her bloodines and they can help you with your own experience. But DO question other breeders too. Their unbaised opinions will supplement the information you have acquired.
Arm yourself with all the breed knowldge you can possibly gain. Firmly resolve that those future puppies are going to be the best you can create. After all, when one goes to the trouble of sowing seeds, he plants flowers and not weeds. Study the Bulldog and NEVER stop studying him as long as you remain a breeder. Familiarize yourself with the Bulldog Standard; know the qualities that make a good Bulldog; the faults which mar him. Try to have, at least, a basic working knowledge of genetics, enough to understand the principles of reproduction and heredity, and to avoid superstitions and false ideas.
The study of pedigrees is fascinating and enlightening. Pedigrees are the written record of successful and unsuccesful breeding. Analyze your bitch's pedigree for at least four generations. This does not mean a superficial "counting of champions"-a common pit-fall for novices and even some older breeders who should know better. Get all the informatino you can about each individual ancestor-his or her faults and good points. Trace the heritage of such attributes from parent to offspring. Such information is not easy for the novice to acquire. You will need to consult older fanciers who may have been personally familiar with those ancestors or who may have pictures and information to help you. And may I suggest that The Bulldog Club of America Yearbook has a great field of opportunity of providing such data.
In appraising the worth of a pedigree watch the tag-line! This is the bottom line which records the lowly succession of dam, grand-dam, etc. It is the Acheles heel of most pedigrees. Never forget that its influence is just as strong, and perhaps stronger, than the top line of sire, grand-sire, etc., whose dazzling array of champions may blind us to the real source of our breeding disappointments. Keep your pedgiree tag-line strong!
In conjunction with the study of your bitches pedigree, be heartlessly critical of her assets and liabilities. For instance-is she very narrow in jaw? Then try to find out if this fault appears in the majority of her ancestors. If so, you will endeavor to engage a stud dog whose heritage is strong in wide jaw. At this point, you are ready to begin thinking about the future mate for your bitch.
Your studies must have fixed in your mind the ideal of the kind of Bulldog you want to breed someday. Keep this goal bright in your mind and stick to your type. Type is an ideal and to the vast majority of breeders it is the ideal sketched by the Bulldog Standard. You can choose no better. The vague use of the word type may be confusing to you. When a judge talks about a typey Bulldog, he refers to a dog which approaches the Standard. When you hear fanciers talking about Bulldog types, they are speaking of the variety in big ones, little ones, couarse ones, fine ones, etc. Our breed embraces great variations of Bulldog flesh and uniform standardation has been indifferently regarded by many breeders and judges. UNIFORMITY WILL ONLY BE ACHIEVED BY UNIVERSAL RESPECT FOR THE BULLDOG STANDARD. (my emphasis added) So your ideal should recognize the importance of a standared in true breeding advancement.
Select the stud which comes closest to your ideal and do seek the best stud you can engage. This does not necessarily mean that he is a champion, that his stud fee is the highest or that the current ring winner is the panacea for all your troubles. You can usually depend upon it that a champion is strong in good qualities, but your major interest is in knowing whether he is strong in reproducing his good qualities. One conclusion does not necessarily folllow the other. Many fine and prepotent studs have not earned their titles. (You will find this fact recorded many times in the history of our breed.) It may be that faults hinder their show careers, but some dogs may carry the genes to reproduce the best in their heritage with out perpetuating their own faults. The fainal estimate of any dog's desirabilty at stud lies in his performance and in his heritage.
Your first consideration in selecting the proper stud for your bitch is to correct her faults with strength from the stud. But don't forget that her good points must also be retained and, preferrably, strengthened. How often we hear; My bitch has a nice body but her head is weak, so I am going to mate her to that dog with the wonderful head! The breeder ignores the fact that the dog was weak in body. So he feels unjustly abused by Motehr Nature when the pups inherit the dam's head and the sire's body.
As your pedigree analysis will show you, such a breeder started off all right in his thinking, but he just didn't pursue his thoughts far enough. A careful study of both pedigrees of the dog and bitch would have given him a much clearer picture of the probable heritage of strength and weaknesss. Wise pedigree analysis can often explain the failacy of the adage that like begets like. It doesn't. If this were true, the mating of a champion bitch to a champion dog would produce puppies of championship caliber. As many breeders have found out to their sorrow, such matings have often produced a most unworthy mess of puppy flesh. Bear in mind that the eye does not tell you all the potentialities of a contemplated mating.
Take for instance that narrow jaw which your bith has. You may find that the majority of her ancestors were strong in width of jaw. You may be happily surprised and find that most of her puppies will throw-back to that family breadth of jaw-a good quality which she herself does not possess. By the same token, a quality which you consider a virtue in your brood bitch may prove to be something she does not readily reproduce. Your future sutd has the same capacity for happy and unhappy surprises. These things can only be provided by acutal breeding, but your paper-work will shed some light on the reasons for such mysteries. Try to prepare yourself by knowing some of the answers beforehand.
In seeking a stud dog, don't limit your observations to him and his ancestors. Look at his puppies. Is there general average good? Does the sire seem to be prepotent in reproducing certain excellent qualities; qualities which will be valuable to your bitch? Find out something about the bitches which produced his puppies. Is he clicking ONLY with specific bloodlines? A stud's value may be limited to certain lines and what is one man's medicine may be anther man's poison.
This raises the important consideration of establishing a niche in breeding. It is usually accomplished by mating a dog and a bitch which have a mutual ancestry of prepotent strength and quality. Technically known as line-breeding, it is a powerful implement in bringing out desirable qualities. If such mutual ancestry is a means of emphasizing weakness, it is something to be strictly avoided. In-breeding, or the mating of closely related animals (such as a mother and son) is an intensified form of line-breeding. For your initial breeding efforts, this writer advises the longer and safer road. In-Breeding brings out inherent characteristics in a hurry. Desirable and undesirable qualities are apt to be permanently stamped for many future generations. Unfortnatley, faults appear more readily than virtues. For such matings one needs a background quite rich in knowledge of the bloodlines invovled; one needs to-grade breeding material and must be utterly ruthles in weeeding out undesirable puppies. Every serious breeder will probably dabble in in-breeding some day-just to satisfy his own curiosity, if for no other reason. Its potentialities for sucess are unlimited, but be sure you know exaclty WHAT you are doing and WHY . Such a rule need not be applied solely to in-breeding. As one sound breeder once advised me, never mate a bitch to a dog unless you can write down on paper at least three solid reasons why you are doing it.
No, it isn't easy to find the right stud. And no matter how carefully you conduct your quest nor how fortunate you are in engaging a most promising stud dog, you still won't feel one hundred percent satisfied. There will always be a small worry and a risk or two involved. That is because we must always work with materials that are less than perfect. And never forget-just as it takes two to make an argument, so it requires two parents to create puppies. Don't blame the sud for all the faults you never had before; your bitch carried the matching genes for those faults or they would not have appeared in the puppies. Likewise, give your bitch credit for her part in producing execellent qualities; the matching genes were again necessary. You will realize more acutely than ever that a good brood matron is the first and by far most important step in planning a progessive breeding program.
As a final sugggestion, I would like to leave a key-word, one which has been a guiding principle in our own kennel; family quality. By this, we mean that we consider the most desirable matrons and studs to be those which were members of good litters. So we do not seek good quality only in the individual dog and his ancestry of direct line, but we seek the same high qualtiy in brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, etc! We have always said that we would rather breed from an average bitch which was a member of an excellent litter than fron an outstaiding bitch whose brothers and sisters were a bunch of clucks. There is something very reassuring in the thought that a stud dog and brood bitch are solidly encircled by family quality. We do not regard this as a theory, but just plain old fahsioned common sense.
When a litter of pupies is uniformly good, the repitition indicates that their breeding is sound and progressive. The breeder may feel confidence that its merit can be repeated in subsequent matings. But one flyer, no matter how smashing, in a litter of mutts rear the uneasy warning that this lone puppy might be a lucky accident. A dog or bitch with the latter family environment is more apt to reproduce the low average of his family than to perpetuate his own virtues. So seek family quality. It appears to us as the proper method both for improving the aveage quality of all Blldogs and for breeding a truly outstanding dog-a dog which will not let you down when you need the stuff with which he is blessed.
Giood luck, and may your efforts make our beloved Bulldog even a better dog than he is today."
Have You Checked Out....
by Linda Stonehocker
as a learning experience if the information provided regarding Hobbyhorne Cinnamon is correct? Are you one who takes what they read at the honest to God truth? I know we all want to trust everything we read, but regarding time-it seems that things always "improve" with age. That is one of the reasons why there are some who are so against frozen semen. It's kind of like those fishing stories you always hear about-the size just continues to increase. I thought I remembered a different number of champions, but it could be that I am wrong, or that the BCA site wrong, but it is aways good to check ones resources when you have them.
Another reason to check is to see how this breeding program continued. Aren't you the least bit interest in how many times Hobbyhorne Cinnamon was bred? Of the champions she produced, aren't you interested in how many of them went on to produce champions? Aren't you interested in the stud dogs that were used and if they were as successful with other bulldog bitches?
I hope I have sparked your interest and hopefully this thread will continue. Go to the BCA web sitehttp://www.thebca.org Then go to the champion and title holders search. Then check out that Hobbyhorne Cinnamon is indeed in the Hall of Fame. Then go back to Champoins whelped by Hobbyhorne Cinnamon and see what comes up. I hope your curiosity has been sparked from there-and just maybe you will find this as the background of your pedigrees and actually the foundation of those that you hold near and dear snoring in your household!
Inquiring minds want to know
That reply was from me.
Re: Inquiring Minds Want to Know
"This is B-S. Sounds like your opinion of "experienced bulldog exhibitor" is different than mine. I would call this person an idiot. Often times people don't have enough confidence in their opinions and advise to let you go find out what might be a better and more correct answer. Shame on them and anyone with this attitude. This whole bit about "it just isn't done in bulldogs" is absolute baloney."
Agreed. While new to showing, I'm not new to dogs in general, just on the other side of the fence. My history is in obedience, fieldwork (with labs) and some dabbling with agility. The "just isn't done in bulldogs" remark did it for me.
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"These people who "horde" "protege's" just freak me out."
We came to a similar conclusion.
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"Just be smart. I have found that people that go out on their own do much better in the end than someone who needs a constant "mentor" to answer their every question. Questions are fine, great even, but there needs to be independence, an ability to "think outside the box" and an sense of adventure...obviously coupled with a natural eye for dogs and an understanding of the breed."
That's been our direction. I've never been one to follow the crowd, so in the long run I believe we'll do just fine. We do have a couple of knowledgeable folks around us that we can turn to, and who have been very helpful.
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Thank you for your book critique and recommendations. I've followed many of your posts/comments on this board, and the discussions on the breed standard started by Mr. McDermott (just before the Nationals) were extremely helpful to me.
So from a newbie, thank you for taking the time to monitor and post this forum.
books
A critique on your books if you want it;
1) The New Art to Breeding Better Dogs by Kyle Onstott (revised
by Philip Onstott, 1973)
Excellent, I learned allot from these (I have the original and the revision), but they are rather advanced for a brand new breeder.
2) The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs by Clarence C. Little
This is good, I found it more interesting than truly useful. I breed my red and white dogs together and get more red and white dogs. I don't worry about color, and as a breed, color is really not important in the whole big picture..other than personal preference, and obviously black.
3) The Joy of Breeding Your Own Show Dogs by Ann Seranne
I never raise a litter without this book by my side. It is really excellent, for all levels of involvement.
4) Breeding Better Dogs by Dr. Carmen Battaglia
Good book, go to see one of his seminars to really get more out of it.
Find a Claudia Orlandi seminar too.. excellent!
5) Bulldog Digest
The OLD one if you can find it, not the reprint (they removed the best puppy articles), sits right next to my Seranne book with the puppy stuff.
e
Re: Inquiring Minds Want to Know
"Recently, an experienced bulldog exhibitor/breeder told me that if someone asked for their advice, and then asked the same of one or more other respected breeders/exhibitors (gathering a consensus), it was offensive to said breeder and they would no longer give advice/opinion/help. When I challenged this position, especially for someone in my circumstances where everything is new and one is trying to gain as much knowledge as possible, the response was "it just isn't done in bulldogs."
*****************************************
This is B-S.
Sounds like your opinion of "experienced bulldog exhibitor" is different than mine. I would call this person an idiot.
Often times people don't have enough confidence in their opinions and advise to let you go find out what might be a better and more correct answer.
Shame on them and anyone with this attitude.
This whole bit about "it just isn't done in bulldogs" is absolute baloney.
**********************************************
"The clear message was this: if you ask my advice, Ill give it to you, but dont ask someone else the same (question) or Ill get upset and stop helping you".
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Move on! These people who "horde" "protege's" just freak me out.
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"I can only hope this is a local phenomenon and not the norm, as I've completely fallen for this breed!"
**********************************************
Just be smart. I have found that people that go out on their own do much better in the end than someone who needs a constant "mentor" to answer their every question. Questions are fine, great even, but there needs to be independence, an ability to "think outside the box" and an sense of adventure...obviously coupled with a natural eye for dogs and an understanding of the breed.
**************************************************
"I've collected the following reading materials, and have just started on #1:
1) The New Art to Breeding Better Dogs by Kyle Onstott (revised
by Philip Onstott, 1973)
2) The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs by Clarence C. Little
3) The Joy of Breeding Your Own Show Dogs by Ann Seranne
4) Breeding Better Dogs by Dr. Carmen Battaglia
5) Bulldog Digest "
***************************************************
As Ward said, Pat Craig's book is a must, she is a personal idol of mine. You might also like Richard Beauchamp's books. He is one of my favorite mentors.
I will say, some of these books are advanced for a beginner, but read them anyway to get prepared for when you do get hot and heavy into it.
For showing, the George Alston book is great.
There are so many others, I will probably go up now and find many more to suggest.
Just have fun looking. That's how I did it.
Good luck. Keep asking questions. Don't let bad people make this a bad experience. There are too many excellent breeders and exhibitors out there to leave you with the impression you have now.
e
Re: Responce to questions.
The advise to do homework and not rely on the words of others entirely is good.
This goes for judges opinions too. A dog's win record is useless information if the dog is not that good, so even relying on judges opinions is not a good idea unless you can confirm the true quality for yourself.
There are only a few people I would trust to buy a dog for me.
My Response
" Recently, an experienced bulldog exhibitor/breeder told me that if someone asked for their advice, and then asked the same of one or more other respected breeders/exhibitors (gathering a consensus), it was offensive to said breeder and they would no longer give advice/opinion/help. When I challenged this position, especially for someone in my circumstances where everything is new and one is trying to gain as much knowledge as possible, the response was "it just isn't done in bulldogs." The clear message was this: if you ask my advice, Ill give it to you, but dont ask someone else the same (question) or Ill get upset and stop helping you."
I have heard other Bulldoggers say this. I totally disagree. There is more than one way to skin a cat...the breeders that tell you this, in my opinion, have a proven way, in there minds of "the way to do things". I'm sure that it works for them and others that may follow there lead. These folks also for some reason feel you are wasting there time if you consult with anyone else. Again, I dont understand this. Birdy and Wally Newbill told Natalie and I, along time ago, that we should talk to lots of "Reputable Breeders" and listen intently, and remember the things that were common to all of there advice. I would suggest you develop a relationship with an experienced Bulldogger that you can feel comfortable with that is willing to listen to any and all of the things you read and learn and let them guide you through, there is no reason to re-invent the wheel. There is much to learn regarding this breed and all of the advice, articles and books you can read are important to becoming a better bulldogger.
A must have book in my opinion is "Born to Win Breed to Succeed" by Patricia Craig
Good Luck,
Ward
Responce to questions.
Yes, this thread was posted back in 2003, and it could have been a time when the incorrect info may have been on the site, dont know.
Linda was very big on doing your "homework". Doing your own research and proving to yourself that what had been written in an article about the breed was correct, this was always Lindas concern, in other words dont take everything you read as the gospel.
W
Very good Ward
Thanks for posting. It helps us newcomers with some of the finer points.
Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.
-In memory of Casper
Thank you..
I enjoyed that article. Nice easy read and I enjoyed the clarity. Thanks for posting.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know
From a newbie standpoint, this article appears to offer very sound advice. I'm doing my best to learn all I can about the breed and showing. Ive never bred a litter of puppies (any breed), but most likely will breed my female puppy eventually, depending upon how she progresses and matures.
When it comes to asking questions and gathering information from experienced exhibitors/breeders, some have been very open and helpful, but a couple of my experiences have been quite different. Recently, an experienced bulldog exhibitor/breeder told me that if someone asked for their advice, and then asked the same of one or more other respected breeders/exhibitors (gathering a consensus), it was offensive to said breeder and they would no longer give advice/opinion/help. When I challenged this position, especially for someone in my circumstances where everything is new and one is trying to gain as much knowledge as possible, the response was "it just isn't done in bulldogs." The clear message was this: if you ask my advice, Ill give it to you, but dont ask someone else the same (question) or Ill get upset and stop helping you.
I found this quite astonishing, and frankly it hasn't been the only time I've run into a similar, though less severe, attitude. I am not deterred, but I find it annoying and can see how it might put off other new/potential bulldoggers, and I fail to see how such an attitude helps the breed. I can only hope this is a local phenomenon and not the norm, as Ive completely fallen for this breed!
Ive collected the following reading materials, and have just started on #1:
1) The New Art to Breeding Better Dogs by Kyle Onstott (revised
by Philip Onstott, 1973)
2) The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs by Clarence C. Little
3) The Joy of Breeding Your Own Show Dogs by Ann Seranne
4) Breeding Better Dogs by Dr. Carmen Battaglia
5) Bulldog Digest
Any other suggested reading? Comments and/or opinions on the above books?
(Forgive the punctuation. Don't know why, after I hit the submit button, the puncuation gets wacky))
My response
I can respect a long-timer's reasons for doing it their way, afterall they've put a great deal of blood, sweat, tears, time and money into developing their line of dogs. And like you said, there's no point in re-inventing the wheel. However, it is my nature to question things, inquire from many different sources, and glean from that information what might work best for me and my dogs. To me that's a natural process.
Thank you for your comments and your encouragement, Ward ... and the book recommendation. I've captured a lot from the many discussions that take place on this board. I'm grateful it's here as a resource.
could it be?
I am still confused at this. Sorry for dragging it out...
This post was from a few years back.. I wonder if the BCA database was still not complete and the numbers of champions that Hobbyhorne Cinnamon produced was not correct on the site. Today the site lists 8 not 9.. not anything I would think twice about, in my mind, any bitch that produces more than 4 champions is remarkable. And I don't see anyone making a point like Linda's when discussing 8 and not 9 champions (2 not 9, yes. 8 not 9, no). Her statement that "she thought she remembered a different number of champions" is curious to me because the number was unchanged for decades before Linda got started in bulldogs.. leading me to think she based her follow up on the theory that maybe the BCA site only listed a small amount of champions and she felt the need to expose a "misconception"..
Anyway, sorry to be thinking aloud at you..
Re: Looking Back - Selecting A Stud - Very Interesting and Thoug
Well, this is an excellent article by Carolyn Horne. Excellent.
What I don't get is Linda's point, but if you know this history of these boards you know her and I did not see eye to eye on much. No disrespect intended, I know she had many very loyal friends who were very fond of her and I know that meant allot to her.
But...
Her point to do research is very wise. I hope that her follow up does not take away from the wisdom of the original article. It seems to me she is actually calling out the writer, even though the information about the HOF bitch appeared in the introduction and not in the article itself.
Ward, nice article and I am glad you posted it. On Mrs. Horne's points I have no disagreement ( also note.. By "tag line" she means bitch tail line) but if you want to continue Linda's thread as she requested, I would submit that research is great, the more the merrier, but some information is nearly impossible to come by, and while my dogs ( as many of yours) trace back to this family (Hobbyhorne) a time or two, I do not consider them even a little bit when planning my future breedings. I tend to concentrate on 5 generations back, rarely more, unless there is line or inbreeding beyond that.
I am not sure in what fashion she wanted this discussion to continue. To me, the article stands alone. If her point was to do research, I strongly agree. I just don't think her point to do research fits in as a follow up to this particular excellent article.
Again, no disrespect intended, but if Linda were alive I would question her point directly.
E
thanks for posting Ward
alot of wisdom in there... great read. Love the part about being able to list 3 reasons why to use a dog...
Good post, Ward....
it gives a good idea of how hard it is to breed litter and litter w/ champions or show quality pups in eachlitter and a pedigree doesn't tell that much in many cases unless you have seen the dog and its progeny already to know whether it is a good thing or a bad thing that Ch So and So is in the pedigree in 2nd and 4th generation. It seems the more I know the more I realize I don't know...or still don't know!

Thanks for posting it!
Lorraine
If only I was as good a person as my dogs seem to think I am!
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