Same as my comment to the post above...clearly delineated contracts with clearly delineated consequences make for better understanding and better outcomes...but it IS hard to put every happenstance into a contract and most often they are only as valuable as the paper they are written on. Background checks on buyers often pay off in the first place as does talking to a prospective buyer, spending some time with them and then going with your gut instincts or developing better radar in your gut! Not an easy thing to do...breeding and selling pups is not for the faint of heart in so many different ways.

Lorraine
If only I was as good a person as my dogs seem to think I am!
Find us on:
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Did you have a lawyer draw it up?

for the info, and indepth artical.... it would of taken me forever to find it with my computer skills. Alot of great information thank you. kristie

Kristie Barwick
http://www.symarunbulldogs.com

A few years back I had a bitch that I had placed with a retired couple. They had come highly reccommended by a longtime bulldogger who had known them for years. Their kids had went to school together and had known them at least 20 yrs.

My situation was a bit different. They were not following the care guidelines and agreements made. They had failed to vaccinate the dog, even against rabies. They had her morbidly obese at 15 mos old she was over 80 lbs... this is a 50-53 pound bitch. They lied to me about her care and I follewed up with the vets they claimed to be using. I tried to discuss the issues with them to no avail... and ended up filing suit in small claims court. THey countered with a lawyer so I got one too... in teh end I only spent $1500 but they settled the day before we were to go to court.

What made this possible was a good contract. I go over board in my contract and state what is expected in regards to feeding, conditions, vaccinations, breeding - or lack of, etc as well as my recourses if they dont abide by it. I have to admit, I have such an extensive contract to act as a screening tool. If someone doesnt like having to agree to care for the dog in the same fashion I would, they dont get it. NO EXCEPTIONS. The dogs come first. I would do it again... but I am confident my contract will hold if necessary.

I'm a big fan of most bulldogs being altered. 7 months is not unreasonable. But I won't do it any younger if it can be avoided. 7 months for most bitches will catch them before the first heat.

I now wait a bit longer for most boys.

As we don't breed very often and place few dogs, we cam be very picky nowadays on who they are going too. And most of the pet calls I get are from people adamant about NOT ever wanting to breed. So I don't stress much over waiting till the boys have had a chance to grow up a bit before being neutered, about 10-12 months.

But many many vets want it done at 4 months. That and a DHLPP and Rabies shot and it's all too much for what is a half grown puppy in most cases so I now provide all puppy buyers with this article

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

j

E has made some wonderful points. I usually talk to
prospective owners several times before I even meet them and I also listen to every word they say. If
they ask any questions about breeding or raising puppies
I don't sell a puppy. First phone conversation I have with prospective owners, I mention we only place on spay/neuter contracts. This usually sends the puppymillers or backyard breeders wanting a good line down the road. We do not place show puppies with newbies regardless of how much interest they have in showing. It took us a while to find a bulldog breeder to sell us a show puppy-and we talked to them for several months before they even gave us a referral and after we got into this I realized why. We were determined to exhibit but alot of people use this as a line to get their hands on a show puppy or a very nice pet quality pup. Our contract also states penalties if the contract is broken. Alot of it is gut instinct and listening very closely. If a prospective owner approaches us and they mention they have several breeds of dogs, that usually axes the deal also. We ask for veterinary references and always ask who referred them or where they got our name. We don't place many pups, but we don't get in any hurry to place them. They usually stay with us at least 10-12 weeks. I think as breeders we all will get burned a time or two, someone will sneak in and be a good liar or con artist and they are out there. Good luck.
Laura

We have a spay and neuter contract and a limited registration. When we screen potential buyers I listen to every word they say. This sounds pretty harsh, but if they even ask a question about the breeding process I do not sell them a dog.
We don't sell many puppies so that makes it easier. I imagine breeders who do allot of breeding are at a disadvantage, but I know these breeders do not worry so much if their dogs are re-bred.
The families we sell to are mostly all local to us, use our veterinarian in most cases so I know what is going on with them at (most) all times.
I never sell to a person out of my immediate area.
If they owned a bulldog before it helps them.
You can tell in time how to read people. It takes time and yes, you will get 'screwed" a time or two until you learn. We had a horrible time with a woman back in the 80's, before limited regitration.
Just be careful. It is a massive responsibility to breed dogs.
I have a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality towards buyers but I don't care. Pay attention to their lifestyle. Pay attention to the types of questions they ask and spend time with them before you let them have a dog. My correspondence with these people is months long with a visit to our home before they leave with a dog. If you sell to the first buyer with not much time spent with them before you sell the dog to them, likely you will miss some of these easy-to-recognise clues. Granted, you can't read everyone but there are so many ways to see through the bad guys.
Mention to them that you do not sell AKC breedable dogs but if they want to breed you can help them find a good breeder that will help them.
And help them!
Encourage them to join the club and educate them. You cannot prevent people form breeding dogs, but you can help the ones that do help the breed not harm it further than it already is.
Good luck
e

o... our vet has been doing them for 8 yrs but it hasn't been on large breed dogs. I have read up on it but hadn't found ill effects. yes about the contravery about the dog not developing or growing taller ect.. I'll do some more searching. I have not had a problem and all homes have had them done before 7 months. I'm paranoyde and doing reference checks on there reference checks and so on. My worry is that if someone mentions breeding to one breeder and gets denyed they will figure out what to say to buy them selves a good "pet" for other purposes. I've gone on walks with my dog and have numerious people stop me and say "I have a male" do you want to breed them..lol, I act dumb and try and find out were there dog came from of course saying I'm not interested ... and email the breeder and let them know.

Kristie Barwick
http://www.symarunbulldogs.com

We spayed on bitch at 12 weeks. She developed incontinence at 4 years old. There is alot of new research showing that med-large breeds can suffer health effects from pediatric spay/neuter and we don't do it anymore. If there was truly no risk to the pups ALL my pet pups would be fixed before leaving.

Now I use the contract and also rely on my intuition. AND I agree with E. If they even start asking about breeding there is no sale unless they are looking at an older altered adult which we have occaisionally had for placement

Contracts are pretty useless UNLESS you specify a financial penalty for non-compliance ie: 2000 per puppy if they breed the bitch etc.

T?his gives you an actual claim in court.

Is it easy to sue for damages like this, probably not but it may make disingenuous people think twice before breaking their agreement

J

The contract that had been used on this bitch was one I wrote up myself. It just has to be clear, consise and not leave much up to interpretation. Your contract has to be specific, outline the agreement and the consideration given as well as what is expected in case of breech. I am not an attorney so I cant give legal advice... but mine worked well in the situation. I have seen several others used by breeder friends of mine and there are alot of good ones out there.

I did have the lawyer adjust mine for me after this happend just to be sure it got better.

It was well worth it! I would do anything for our boy not to be in a place like that again. I couldnt bare the thought of them winning and what he would be living life like there. No dog deserves that. You just never know people. You think you do but then you find out. A hard lesson learned. Again I hope all works outs and you can help this bully out of a bad situation.

to see what some people get away with and how the honest person has little rights, crazy and sad

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I read it in a book somewhere. I thought it was quite the bold move since Tyson isnt playing with a full deck.
I could see myself doing though. Yikes!! What has this breed done to me?

Chalk one up for the good guys!!!
I love a happy ending. Too bad it had to cost so much though. The court system is quite the frustrating process.

I would do the females for sure.

I just know a couple of breeders going through it. I would be sick to my stomach if it happened to me. I think pre spaying might be the way to go. I will have to read up on my research to make sure it is a safe alternative.
I think spaying young might be the lesser of the two evils if I think about the hell a bitch may go through in the wrong hands.
These people that do this are scum!!
I guess I am trying to see if anyone has had any successes out there against scumbags like this.
I want to be proactive just keep myself out of trouble in case this ever were to happen to me. Not sure how I would handle it.

file a complaint.

Sorry this is hapening.


When the dog is out of your care you dont have much control over them. It is very very sad, if you co-own you can state in your contract if the bitch is breed w/o written permission or before a certain age you are to be given back the bitch and all living puppies. This way you have a contract that the puppies are your property. However it's not easy to get them back. You can threated and some will be afraid of them.


HOpe everything works out.

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

Your right it does cost THOUSANDS. I havent had this happen with a puppy but with our Champion bulldog. We had some people want to buy him but we were not willing to sale him. He is our baby we raised him and I bottle fed him from day one. But they offered to buy "into" him. (this was our first time to do anything like this) Thought it would be good. They would help us pay to show him and advertise etc. Well little did I know they had differnent plans for him... They were on his AKC paper a total of 2 months before I found out what they really wanted him for. BREEDING!!! Large amounts of breeding! I did get him in my possistion before saying anything.. Which was smart! Thank god I thought before I spoke for the first time. Long story short... But we had to go to court to get them off the papers. They ended up trying ot sue us for him for got for how much I think like $30,000 Not sure if that is right but it was ALOT!. Or They wanted $15,000 for them to sign off the papers! Well needless to say for 2years we battled this!! But finally this Feb it was over. But yes Thousand of dollars have to be spent in court for them to do anything! Very stressful. I would never do this agian. With our without a contract it is hard to win in court. But we did! Thank godness. He is now home and we will never do that again. Well just thought I would share. It does take alot of time in court and out of court to try to get thing done and it is very stressful. In my case we won but not everytime you will. Good luck on this.

that mike tyson deal was actually not the way it was reported, she actually contacted him and he no longer wanted the dog, so she come got it back, he let her on teh propety.. i know it was reported somewhere as iof she just wondered into his hoem and took it, but he allowed her to do that. there was an article in our paper about that a few years ago, i will see if i can find teh archive online to it.

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ya pre spaying is the way to go, I'll let you know how it goes!!!!

Kristie Barwick
http://www.symarunbulldogs.com

they just talk about the sire and his pedigree. Its crazy!! They like to throw around the word champion and they stole other peoples dogs. Its crazy!!
Laws need to be changed.

i dont think that will work, proving it is teh problem, he said shje said, being a civil trial its not in depth as a crime trail is, also entering teh property woudl never fly in a us court, only a warranty or approval atthe time of entry allows that.. there would also be dangers in doing that...and in teh end you may be the one in jail, i mean they can say anything, but then its not enforceable to teh point of pre arranged entry to a home..

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OPPPPS I meant if they breed the dog and call it a purebreed bulldog thats what's illegal and ckc will fine them... like $200. sorry type o's

Kristie Barwick
http://www.symarunbulldogs.com

Cindy I was under the understanding that when you sell a pup in canada on a non breeding agreement through ckc it means they cannot reg' any puppies out of the dog, if they breed it, or not call it purebred, and that is the part that is eligal. when selling puppies you should enclude both non breeding contract, and also a spay/fix contract on your own... in mine, if the dog is not fixed by a certain date(7months) it states I will come and get the dog with no expence to me. They do not own the dog until its fixed. My vet does puppy spays at 8 to 10 weeks and this is something I have really been considering. You are right people don't care about papers and its scary thinking you are selling your puppy as a pet and it could be contributing to bulldog/pug crosses or gods knows what. If you catch the person selling the puppies as purebreed, the ckc will get involed.

Kristie Barwick
http://www.symarunbulldogs.com

What if I had a lawyer draw up an additional contract with a fine of $10,000 and I have the right to enter their property and seize the dog if they use it for breeding or mistreat the animal in any way.
If I have signed permission to enter their property and seize my dog how can they call the cops on me right?

I remember reading somewhere one of the top bullmastiff breeders in the US sold a pup to Mike Tyson. When the breeder found out the dog was not being looked after she walked right in his house and took it back. Nothing ever came of it but maybe she was just lucky.

you could spend 20 grand on lawsuits and stil may not win, depends on EXACT contract wording, plus then collecting it could be even harder, basically unless you spay the dog, you cant guaratee nothing in breeding sadly...akc papers are not a point as they can either not register em or use another of those funky registies... and still sell dogs for teh same as if they were akc money wise. so shy of haing them spayed before leaving, its not easy

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This is something the courts have to deal with costing in upwards of $10,000 to fight to get your dog back.
Once the transaction of money occurs they own the dog. Remember its property. Has nothing to do with ethics. Police won't touch that with a ten foot pole unless you go to get your dog then they are more than willing to arrest you.

They didn't adhere to the written, binding, legal contract, therefore they forfeit ownership. Call the local law enforcement and see if you can get an escort.