there is no reference to length of tail other than "must be short" in any standard. I have never seen a bulldog with a tail that even came close to the hocks anyway.
Short is a word that can have many interpretations. A bulldog with a tail of any length can appear to have a long tail in comparison to what we are used to seeing, but even the longest tailed bulldogs have tails that are short in comparison to breeds with tails.
Don't get hung up on the length of your puppy's tail, longish and straight is much better than twisted and deformed.

personally however I don't like a long tail, I have a bitch with a very long tail everything else is great but the tail drives me nuts

e
I guess until you have a balanced bulldog with a nice tail, you can't appreciate it.

I am putting in my order to Dara for a "nice dog with a great tail" this time!

No more "nice dog with bad tail" for me.

when discussing tails.. The link between spina bifida and tails has not been "officially" established.
The spina bifida issue seems to be linked more to the breed being brachyocephalic. Certainly straight or slightly kinked tails (as described by the standard) are more "normal" in dog terms and the wacky curled and deformed tails that are so accepted are anything but normal but we cannot yet cry about the perils of spina bifida as it relates to tails until we know for sure.
BTW.. have you all gotten your spine x rays to OFA?
How about your trachea x rays???
e

funny, many puppies born with a nice tail as they grow the tail changes and it is no longer nice and long.


I want what is between the jaw and tail too. Not just 1 thing.

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

Spike tail, 7 month old dog

Spike tail 7 month old bitch

on both of these dogs the tail set is a bit high, but IMO these are correct tails

Diana

"Small minds discuss people, great minds discuss ideas"

and when I breed Scarlett eventually I would love to find a nice dog with a straight tail. When I was looking for a puppy to show I wanted one with the straight tail but couldn't find one... & now that I'm looking for a stud same deal. There must be some out there somewhere!

My boy Cooper, who is from a pet store... has an awesome straight tail. But he's got a long body and is a bit tall & thin (and he's from a pet store lol) He just got neutered a couple of weeks ago poor Coopie...

If anyone knows of a great stud with straight tail please tell me about him!

Here are a couple pics of Cooper
[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Allison
Cooper & Scarlett

you need to realize that if you start showing nice dogs with great tails you will actually win more than you do now with nice dogs with bad tails.
Kind of makes sense.. no?
Correct tails should not look funny to anyone.. or they are probably not correct...
E

"I'd like to hear opinions from the seasoned veterans as to why we don't see as many longer tailed dogs winning in the ring or
not so much wininig but even being presented".

Simply because the top stud dogs do not display this feature. So, with certain stud dogs being used, admired and rewarded with tails that are not quite what the standard describes, what other outcome would you expect?

"Why do the majority of breeders get nervous when they see a longer than average tail, and eliminate them from their breeding program".

I don't know about them, but we scream with delight when we get such a tail. Unfortunately, the best tail does not always fall on the best puppy.

"Why dont we see more 3-4 + inch spiked tails in the ring?"

Because they are probably just not being produced by the majority of breeders. And since the mentality is to breed to the big winners and the big producers and those dogs have tails that are not nice and correct, you would not expect great correct tails to spring out of nowhere. Most show breeders around are newer rather than more experienced. When new people come into the breed and see the type of dog that wins and that type does not have the longer tails, why would they try for something different? It is also the perception that with the longer tail comes excessive body length, which may or may not be true, I tend to think it is not so cut and dry as that. I love a great tail, have a young dog here with a great tail and despite him lacking in some other areas, I might just well use him to keep that tail. I went out and got him mom pretty much just for her tail anyway.. so....

"The standard says the tail should be short with downward carriage, I would imagine that anything that describes downward carriage should be longer than a 1/2 to an inch long in order to have any "Downward" carriage".

Most tails in the ring are not even described in the standard...but carriage has nothing to do with the length of the tail.

"Plus many of the illustrations i've seen in older books as well as the bulldog illustrated guide show a picture with the spiked tail being
displayed, along with some pretty decent length to it".

That is because it is the tail that is described in the standard and admired by those who understand the breed. The American standard is the only one that even describes a tail other than a straight one and even that description only defines a bent tail, not the curly que ones that are so common now.

"Would you or would you not eliminate a spiked tailed dog from your breeding program?"

Well, of course not. But I think people have been trained to regard tails as a disposable feature in favor for features that are more important to them. Unfortunately it has been passed on that tails are not that important with the idea that "if you have to get to the tail to fault the dog, then you are doing pretty good?" I think anyone with a brain would desire the correct tail on the correct dog, after all, if a dog shows up some day that happens to be awesome in head, body, movement, etc, and has a nice spike tail to boot? HELLO! It is what most of us dream about. A decent dog with a good tail will actually have advantage in the ring. Any good Bulldogger admires a nice tail when it shows up, but only if it wags off a nice dog. If it were only about breeding the best head, or the biggest bone or the best tail and nothing else, we would all have it made. Brreding is so much more complex.

"I personally think a nice straight fine tipped 2-3 inch tail is pretty attractive but that is just my "opinion".

I think everyone has that opinion. HOWEVER.. a tail cannot stick up off the body. Therefore a 3 inch straight tail that is gay is more horrifying to me than a short tail that is tidy and creates a nice outline. The old books agree. Gay tail is one of the worse faults you can have because it points to a faulty topline as well. There are more issues with tail than just shape. There is set, length and carriage to consider. A lengthy straight tail that is set high and carried gay is as bad to me as a high set curly que bun tail. Both are wrong.

e

I have only been looking at bulldogs for a couple of years. I do understand what a good tail is supposed to look like. However, it is so rare that I see one - when I do, I am sorry to say, it does not look right to me. Just doesn't.

Now, I am not a breeder, so tail lovers need not worry. However, what if I do become a breeder in the future, and my tail preference or opinion doesn't change. Is it my fault that I was "raised" on seeing the best bulldogs with short tails, or is it your (the current breeders) fault for breeding and winning with them?

Just making a point.

Obviously you breed to the standard, period. But, we are human, and eventually what the ring keeps telling you is "Best" will continue to make this a challenging hurdle for breeders to contend with.

Great topic.

original question very nicely.

My breeder also, likes to see a longer tail... just for what it has to offer the breed. Of course, as you say, when so many are breeding the top dogs and they happen to have a smaller type tail... that is what you will get.

So, it is hard to find a longer tail on a well rounded dog or bitch. This could be a great discussion at a seminar at the Nationals... why not suggest it.

used to seeing but, that is not to say that we should eliminate it from the breeding programme, the longer tail, that is. We may not like the 'look' of the longer tail but it serves a genetic purpose.

the tail is an extension of the spinal column and, as, such, needs to be there in some form... the danger of getting less and less tail (no pun int...end..ed) is that you head toward spina bifida.

You definitely would not want to "double up' on the trait of no or little tail.

that is my OPINION only.

thanks,
Andrea

or they turn up or stick out!

Rachel and the Bullies: Sparky, Tinkerbell, Lulu, Angel, Joanie, & Hope

It's frustrating when you have puppies born with nice spike tails and they go away.

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

Vicky,

Guess I want it all, I want to hit the lottery!!!

Elizabeth my comments inline below..

"I'd like to hear opinions from the seasoned veterans as to why we don't see as many longer tailed dogs winning in the ring or
not so much wininig but even being presented".

Simply because the top stud dogs do not display this feature. So, with certain stud dogs being used, admired and rewarded with tails that are not quite what the standard describes, what other outcome would you expect?

- Ok, simple as that i guess


"Why do the majority of breeders get nervous when they see a longer than average tail, and eliminate them from their breeding program".

I don't know about them, but we scream with delight when we get such a tail. Unfortunately, the best tail does not always fall on the best puppy.

- Well that's good to hear, Unfortunately not too many share the spiked tail preference. Also agree it must be within overall balance of the pup/dog.

"Why dont we see more 3-4 + inch spiked tails in the ring?"

Because they are probably just not being produced by the majority of breeders. And since the mentality is to breed to the big winners and the big producers and those dogs have tails that are not nice and correct, you would not expect great correct tails to spring out of nowhere. Most show breeders around are newer rather than more experienced. When new people come into the breed and see the type of dog that wins and that type does not have the longer tails, why would they try for something different? It is also the perception that with the longer tail comes excessive body length, which may or may not be true, I tend to think it is not so cut and dry as that. I love a great tail, have a young dog here with a great tail and despite him lacking in some other areas, I might just well use him to keep that tail. I went out and got him mom pretty much just for her tail anyway.. so....

- Awesome!!! I'd love to see a picture of him Elizabeth. If you'd like you can email it to me offline.

- More than likely it's exactly what you mention of breeders following the big winners.

"The standard says the tail should be short with downward carriage, I would imagine that anything that describes downward carriage should be longer than a 1/2 to an inch long in order to have any "Downward" carriage".

Most tails in the ring are not even described in the standard...but carriage has nothing to do with the length of the tail.

- True most are tailess alltogether. Well, what i meant by the carriage statement is that one would think that if it is extremely short that it would basically lack the ability (from a flexibility standpoint)to have any kind of carriage.

"Plus many of the illustrations i've seen in older books as well as the bulldog illustrated guide show a picture with the spiked tail being
displayed, along with some pretty decent length to it".

That is because it is the tail that is described in the standard and admired by those who understand the breed. The American standard is the only one that even describes a tail other than a straight one and even that description only defines a bent tail, not the curly que ones that are so common now.

"Would you or would you not eliminate a spiked tailed dog from your breeding program?"

Well, of course not. But I think people have been trained to regard tails as a disposable feature in favor for features that are more important to them. Unfortunately it has been passed on that tails are not that important with the idea that "if you have to get to the tail to fault the dog, then you are doing pretty good?" I think anyone with a brain would desire the correct tail on the correct dog, after all, if a dog shows up some day that happens to be awesome in head, body, movement, etc, and has a nice spike tail to boot? HELLO! It is what most of us dream about. A decent dog with a good tail will actually have advantage in the ring. Any good Bulldogger admires a nice tail when it shows up, but only if it wags off a nice dog. If it were only about breeding the best head, or the biggest bone or the best tail and nothing else, we would all have it made. Brreding is so much more complex.

"I personally think a nice straight fine tipped 2-3 inch tail is pretty attractive but that is just my "opinion".

I think everyone has that opinion. HOWEVER.. a tail cannot stick up off the body. Therefore a 3 inch straight tail that is gay is more horrifying to me than a short tail that is tidy and creates a nice outline. The old books agree. Gay tail is one of the worse faults you can have because it points to a faulty topline as well. There are more issues with tail than just shape. There is set, length and carriage to consider. A lengthy straight tail that is set high and carried gay is as bad to me as a high set curly que bun tail. Both are wrong.

- Well not everyone as far as i know has that opinion. I've spoken to a few breeders(remain nameless) haha.. that fret away from anything other than a button tail on their dogs.

- Agree, nothing uglier than a bulldog carrying a gay - up in the air tail.

Thanks for the feedback Elizabeth. Greaty appreciated. Hopefully we'll get some other folks to comment on this as well.

Best regards,
Randy