SCREW TAILS ARE VERY COMMON AMONG AMERICAN BULLDOGS AS WELL. THE ORIGINAL BULLDDDOGS LOOKED MORE LIKE THE PITBULL DOES NOW...LONGER SNOUTS, HARDLY ANY WRINKLES ON THE HEAD, LONG TAIL FOR BALANCE. TO ME THE PUSHED IN NOSES DIDNT COME UNTIL LATER. IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO ME FOR A PUSHED IN NOSE TO BE ABLE TO GRAB ON AND HOLD THE WRINKLES AND BLOOD DONT MAKE TOO MUCH SENSE THERE AND IM NOT TOO SURE BUT I DONT KNOW IF THESE BULL BAITINGS WERE TO THE DEATH OF THE BULL BUT IF THE GRAB ON THE NOSE THERE WOULDNT BEE TOO MUCH BLOOD THERE PERHAPS BY GRABBING THE BEAR AFTER IT WAS DOWN BUT THE STOMACH BUT STILL I THINK THEY WOULD GET PRETTY BLOODY LOL...JUST MY TWO CENTS

is really over the nose..i can see what you mean there.

i would imagine there is some health issues to that to.

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Bulldogs as you know had a long tail at one point.
Breeds that were created from early bulldogs still have a similar tail;
boxers, bullmastiffs, the bull terrier breeds.
Somewhere along the line, a pug or some pugs were mixed with bulldogs.
Hard to say why.. maybe to keep them small. .maybe to make the nose even shorter....
The result of this cross is a likely genesis for the screw tails.. the flat backs and maybe even the black color.
Dogs that were created from bulldogs after the pug cross are;
Frenchies and Bostons.
Pugs, Frenchies, Bostons and bulldogs today share very similar health issues that boxers, bullmastif, bull terriers do not share.
Spinal problems and many of the brachecephalic issues are all similar in the post-pug cross derivitaves.
e

How did the tail evolve like it has?

"The pics in the first set...how far back are those?"

Ranging from 1930's to mid 40's.

"What do you think breeders did to loose that?"

Not paying enough attention.. going for flash and not head type. It's not easy to maintain this strong a head type.

"I tend to like overdone myself but after reading your comments I can see why it could be a problem".

You cannot appreciate the head properties in an overdone head.
Along with overdone wrinkles usually comes big and incorrect ears as well.
It is really not right for the breed, contrary to what so many people think.
Not one of the examples I posted pics of are overdone and they are among the best our breed has ever seen.

"I once read that the face should have all those wrinkes for the blood to run down when they were used for bullbaiting but I always wondered why the old pics never showed very many wrinkles"

Because it is an old wives tale that refuses to go away.
here is a fighting bulldog from a painting done in 1825.
It is written that the best bulldogs the Kingdom ever saw were pitted against this lion. Here is a pic of one of those dogs.
You tell me if any wrinkles were used to channel blood.
It was the fine chiseling of the skull, the deep furrow, the layed-back nose and forehead that was not perpendicular that helped them in a fight. Wrinkles were not a major factor.
And those features are so important even now.
There is no historical basis for ropey wrinkles.

"Not sure what truth there was to what I read...just a book I read at Borders one day".

Forget most of the stuff you have read... so much of it is so wrong.
Look at examples.. use common sense.
e

The pics in the first set...how far back are those? What do you think breeders did to loose that. I tend to like overdone myself but after reading your comments I can see why it could be a problem.

I once read that the face should have all those wrinkes for the blood to run down when they were used for bullbaiting but I always wondered why the old pics never showed very many wrinkles.
Not sure what truth there was to what I read...just a book I read at Borders one day.

thank you for the examples

that is just the term that popped into my mind that defined that look, it could be the incorrect term though.

I think it helps give the bulldog a 'cute' look, just like the over done nose rope, not the sour look.

By the way, thanks for posting those examples of split, correct, and overdone.

I never heard the term "pin tucked"
how does it relate to the feature do you think?
e

isnt' that the term? that v shape? i see ch's that have this a LOT in the bulldogger from a specific line. baffles me.

have incorrect jaws. Unside down V not the nice U

see how the wrinkle doesn't get in the way of the nose?
e

Some of my favorite heads of all-time had the split wrinkle.
yes, hard to find nowdays.. but these heads were just incredible and its a shame that heads like these are so rare now.

can you post a picture of the nose rope because i am completely lost lol sorry im new to english bulldogs

"Elizabeth,
What is your opinion on a split wrinkle on the nose rope. Is it considered a fault?
Glad your on the board, your knowledge about the breed is invaluable".

Thanks for the nice words. I learned from some great Bulldoggers and have some wonderful literature.
I hope that I can pass along what I have learned.
Anyway.. nose wrinkle...
It gets entirely too much talk-time in my opinion.
Might as well talk about the third wrinkle up on the forehead.
But.. it has become part of the lexicon, so I guess I will address it here.
The nose wrinkle is of no consequence to me, unless it obscures the dog's nose placement, or more specifically, your ability to ascertain nose placement.
There is no mention of the difference between a solid over-the nose wrinkle and a split one in any standard ever written (except the silly Englsih added to their standard the fact that it should not interfere with the line of the layback.. good thing to say, but it does not address the very good dogs who do not have a nose wrinkle.. a big problem if those dogs are looked at as faulty.. which, if their nose is placed well are most certainly not faulty in any way shape or form due to lack of an over-the-nose-wrinkle).
From what I have read, the smaller split ones were most preferred at one point.
My opinion is the smaller the better.
Nothing prettier than a gorgeous head with the nose being correctly set, without a large rope covering it.
I need to dig up an old Bulldog magazine I have (the English equivalent to our Bulldogger)
In it, the editor, Maggie Story goes a rant about these new fangled nose ropes that are ruining the heads.
I couldn't agree with her more.
Some people think it looks "cuter" with a solid rope.
I am not about cute.
They have to look sour.If the rope if solid or split is of no consequence, as long as it does not become the most noticeable feature of the dog's face, and does not interfere with your ability to see at a glance the layback of the tip of the nose.
I am not at all happy how much weight some people give this nose rope.
Its not even referenced by name in any of the classic standards.
Give the actual nose placement your full attention.
Sorry.. sore spot with me.
e

where would one find examples from the past with pics? My only luck has been Old Bullodggers that are for sale at specialties. I regret that I didn't buy more.

Also, I heard to never read the books on Bulldogs here in the US because the US has all copyrights now. Is there any truth to this?