clearing some things up
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clearing some things up
Submitted by hugobull on April 20, 2010 - 10:26pmI've been away all weekend but I hear you guys have had fun on the varying lists playing with the bulldog standard. GOOD
It is important to form your own ideas off ideaS of others (PROVIDED YOU DON'T STRAY INTO LEFT FIELD AND BEYOND). The discussions going around here have been going on for eons. No one is creating any new and innovative ideas, but if you dig them up for discussion.. GREAT!
Not sure what lists these following things came from, I get them confused as so many people belong to all of them and the posts all seem to run into each other.
The short-faced thing. We did a thread on that last year because I was confused as to why so many people were complaining about dogs with faces that were "too short". As some of you figured out, that's what they are supposed to have. The short nose thing is important and is described many ways in the standard. Short face means just that. A dog with a short face. German Shepherd (for example) has a long face.
So, in doing some drawings, I have found out that the main complain isn't really even about jaw length, it is more about depth of foreface. I think the complaint about dogs that are "too short faced" has done nothing more than confuse people.
Lack of depth of foreface is a real problem.
Be clear about your complaints. Seriosuly.
About the history.
The standard was not written in 1976, it was revised in 1976 in the US. The standard was originally written in 1865 and with just a few modifications is still the same worldwide, although I feel the American standard, (from the early 19-teens) was doctored poorly. If you want me to explain, I will, just ask in a new post.
Yes, it fits dogs then as now. The breed was rescued from the point of extinction with very few bulldogs left to work with and after a significant spread of time from when they actually were active in their purpose.
The standard was not meant to describe a breed that could do the job, but it was adamantly stressed that the points that were created from selection over centuries for that one specific job were maintained in the standard.
Sad to me that despite all the talk, issues that are critical are largely overlooked by breeders.
They did not want a bull baiter, they wanted a breed that was showable, ownable and that people wouldn't have been afraid of.
The standard was written purely as a protection of their smaller size, not to mention at any given show before there was a standard, types were all over the place with sizes ranging from under 15 pounds to over 100 pounds with everyone stating that their bulldog was the original and best.
Our bulldog IS the only pure bulldog, no matter what the American bulldog people want to believe.
Old bullogs were hated even more than pit bulls are now.
They made the pitch that the "new and improved" bulldog had lost the ferocity of the past. It was likely the only way they were to be continued.
Yes, with massive early inbreeding, many issues were met. But they had to inbreed to a large extent, they were limited to England and not many dogs to work with. Plus they were admittedly fascinatied with "how massive is massive, how short faced can we really get them". The breed did get freakified. They did.
But thats ok. How many of you would own a bulldog today if they looked like they did 300 years ago?
Happily, the monstrosities and cripples and dogs with horrific faking were eventually bumped out of competition.
You should not have a dog that could bait a bull as he did 200+ years ago. The guys who wrote the standard were not after that or the dogs would look very different than they do now.
The features that were retained are there to be admired and strived for and maintained for all time, but you should NEVER invent reasons why they are the way they are if they do not apply (ie, the heavy wrinkles channeled the blood.. BULL-O-NEY)
The featured that were necessary for bullbaiting are;
Layback of nose
Openess of nostrils
projecting underjaw that curved up
width of eyes
Furrow
Laid back and long forehead
Ears that are not heavy
Thick, strong arched neck
Elbows that are not held underneath the body
deep full and broad chest
The short strong back that had a strong arch at the loin
A low set tail
round ribs
The well rounded stifles (doesn't sound familiar.. the amerciasn deleted that, unfortunately, but it shouldnt change the way things are supposed to be)
The straighter, shorter lower leg
Feet that are not cat footed
The color preference has changed several times and in fact the americans are the only ones with a definitive color preference.
Pigment was debated hotly back then, for years they faught to prevent the Dudleys form being disqualified.
At one time they thought black was a good color, but in time felt it denoted impure blood.
The sugesstion that pug was mixed in has only ever been speculated and now DNA evidence suggests strongly that it if happend, it only happend once or twice and pugs and bulldogs are not related genetically.
e
Puppy prepared to pounce
OK Rod, 'fess up--is there a cat somewhere in his pedigree?
He looks like a cat stalking a mouse!
Complete silence
Ever noticed they can be completely silent if they want to?
They have to set their mind to it, but they can be very quiet (even when they sleep!)
Amazing dogs.....
Ineke
Great pic Rod!
I love it...bulldogs hard at work
very informative and cleared alot of tall tales
especially the heavily wrinkled head part. I see that advertised on alot of websites and they state the same thing, "to channel the blood"
our of curiosity how do you know this to not be true? Besides the fact that in many pictures these dogs were not heavily wrinkles in the face?
thanks for this post!
check out my site!
K-9 Kozy
custom crate pads for your bullies
http://www.geocities.com/rhianniam@sbcglobal.net
Re: Love it Rod!!
Thanks Shelly - He's a fun pup..
Re: thats a work out,
Thank you..
I have the Rebel XT.. I use the (EF 70-200 1:4 L) allot.. It's my favorite lens..
http://www.pbase.com/rodm/favorites
http://www.pbase.com/rodm/bullies
Re: thats a work out,
Rod
Your pictures are amazing. What camera are you shooting with?
e
great story
I think this is great as when you hear these story you can see how all the dots connect. Knowledge is power Kim
Thanks E
Great post well written and very informative as always.....Thanks
Brett & Christy McDonough
Ohno Bulldogs
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Love it Rod!!
Re: thats a work out,
He went about 10 feet like this before jumping on his grandma.. lol I wish I would of had a video camera..
thats a work out,
Looks like push ups.
silent low frontal approach pix
Re: bulldog instinct
actually (don't you just hate me? )
if he grabbed the bull by anywhere but the nose he'd be culled.. or killed by the bull.
Interesting story I just heard. At a time when bulldogs were being used for breeding into other breeds (result to be used by them, not by the bulldog breeders) bulldog was tried with scottish deerhound. The resulting dogs were brave alright, but attacked frontally as a bulldog should and got tangled up in the antlers of the deer. Bad experiment..lol
I can tell you that once I had two of moms dogs get out in the yeard when I was working with one of my setters.. I never heard them approach, they were crouched low and when they attacked, it was at her head and throat.
I got her out of there before they hurt her, but it was really intense to watch this silent low frontal approach, the same that the old accounts talk about.
e
Thank goodness they don't look like pic 1
Elizabeth LOL
bulldog instinct
I just recieved this email from a breeder judge after seeing the postings.
I brought a 3 mo old male puppy into the house. Took him out back to introduce him to the other dogs and he made a bee line for the adult male. Going at full speed, he hit the ground, rolled under the dog and grabbed him by the leg. Now I thought he stumbled and fell but as I watched. he again repeated this same action. He was playing but it was his way of showing his independence and that is what I call INSTINCT. He doesn't have to fight a bull to be born with the God given instinct given to him hundreds of years ago when he had no choice. He was thrown into a pit or wherever the contest was being held. He was created with this need to survive and he learned to use that INSTINCT. I believe if we remembered where these wonderful dogs came from, we would be real careful how we breed them. It took a long time and lots of love to push those instincts into the shadows but I truly hope that we as breeders never forget how far our dogs have come. I appreciate my dogs more everytime I witness one of them acting like he could take a bull down and come out the winner.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth (hi, that's me)posted the original post here.
I am not saying the dogs don't have retained instincts, in fact, the breed is centuries old, they likely always will have some old instincts.
The point is, if the standard was written around the original bullbaiters, they would look like this;
Not this;
Important points were retained, but the intent was to alter them to make them more acceptable to the public who were still wary of this once very hated (by the general public) breed.
And who are my mentors for bulldog history?
Edgar Farman, Vero Shaw and Robert Fullton, specifically the books they wrote on the breed.
e
kim
I think this is wonderful all the information you posted it will be of great use to the new bulldog people & even oldtimers.
I work as a animal trainer for Tv & I was workng on a tv show at Paramount Studios in the show I had my bulldog (Rascal)& a minature horse. Rascal was a very good bulldog wth a CD. They walked this minature horse on stage & all of a sudden this bulldog leaped in the air and almost brought this minature horse to its knees going for its nose I was so mad at the time, but later on after understanding the history & what they were bred to do, even though they do not do it anymore told me the instinct is still there.
I get alot of calls about bulldog problems one main thing is my bulldog will not let go of his toy! Taker my bulldog would not let go of things and after reading history I saw how these dogs held on to the bulls (again instinct) and I had to really work hard on teaching him to release his toys.
Kim
great post, thank you
Re: clearing some things up
Well stated, Thanks E.
Sincerly, Kim
wow
what information, this is my first bulldog and i am hoping to show him, i love all the info you gave and hope you will write some more, as you can never stop learning.
judy/wilson
Re: bulldog instinct
I completly agree with this post! I feel in love with the breed for there temperment alone, they are my passion! puppies end up in pet homes, they need to be able to control them, and understand them.
kristie