so if the head structure was better and the dog had more length of jaw would it be so much of a shelf?

I dont know if i have seen a dog with a shelf and also have lenght & turn up of jaw.

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

One of the things I've noticed more this past year than I did the previous couple years is pinched tight nostrils and the tip of the nose not being tipped back as much as it should be. For a short faced breed, I think wide open nostrils is really important.

Harrold

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Pinched nostrils have always been a problem.
The tip of the nose "laying back" is also elusive. Some dogs are very strong in this area, others not so much.
e

Nose
The nose should be large, broad and black, its tip set back deeply between the eyes. The distance from the bottom of the stop, between the eyes, to the tip of the nose should be as short as possible and not exceed the length from the tip of the nose to the edge of the underlip. The nostrils should be wide, large and black, with a well defined line between them. Any nose other than black is objectionable and a brown or liver-colored nose shall disqualify.

===================================
One of the things I've noticed more this past year than I did the previous couple years is pinched tight nostrils and the tip of the nose not being tipped back as much as it should be. For a short faced breed, I think wide open nostrils is really important.

Harrold
www.majorleaguebulldogs.com

the second picture, the dog is also down-faced or "froggy", more like a frenchy

Not shelfy, he is dishy. His nose falls below the plane created by the tip of jaw and the forhead.

We are seeing more of this in the ring, not a good thing.

But everyone needs a favorite uncle at home.

Regarding angle of layback,

I was once told, and by whom I cannot recall, that a bulldog should always be "up-faced"

That is, all the features of the head are visible easily from above or the front and inclined upwards.

For example, a crocodile is up-faced, if even a few inches of it's skull are abve the water line, it's entire face is visible.

A human, by contrast is as downfaced as an animal gets.

So a bulldog is up-faced, a pug or frenchie or affenspinscher are all much more down-faced.

To be all on the right plane a dog needs to have sufficient lift and tip of muzzle and turn of jaw to bring all those features up to the proper plane. And it takes depth of skull and sufficient length of muzzle and jaw to do that. Too short is the enemy of up.

A little hard to see in this pic but its the best pic I have access to at the moment.

[IMG][/IMG]

that helped.

Rhiann @ Butlerbullz

"flat" is a positive trait...it is the degree that the head "lays back" that we are concerned with. The forehead has to be flat, but the breed is "up faced".. not perpendicular..
e

What about the head that ran into the brick wall. If the judge uses the hand flat on the face they have a level line but the angle of the head is completely wrong. I just don't get the whole lay the hand on the head thing. To me any judge should be able to see a flat plain if they look at the head profile.


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I always tell people forget about the bulldog looking as if he ran into a wall thing. A perpendicular profile is so wrong in so many ways, it lacks jaw length and turn up, the nose is straight up and down and the forehead has no length, height or layback (which is roughly 45 degrees).
I don't get the hands on the head either. You can see it. I think it makes judges look silly.
e

all the same. Either way, not good, but very common.

That was Winston, our first Bulldog. Everyone has to start somewhere, and we learned alot together. He is now our "Coach Bully",or "Uncle Winston". He has no problem showing off his "unique" conformation.

Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

Shelfy is what I have been calling "two planed"

Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

Here is another one. (datestamp should be 2006)




Perserverance isn't a long race.
It's a series of short races,
ran one after the other.

-In memory of Casper

thank you - the pics definately help

there are worse examples.. but this gives an idea..


compare with a better profile;

thank you

What about the head that ran into the brick wall. If the judge uses the hand flat on the face they have a level line but the angle of the head is completely wrong. I just don't get the whole lay the hand on the head thing. To me any judge should be able to see a flat plain if they look at the head profile.

I see soooo many "shelfy headed" bulldogs. And then hear these people brag about what a great head their bulldog has. I like to see a nice clean layback where there isn't that "road bump" above the eyes. It is one of the things that really is one of my peeves. And this is important as I think the bulldog head is one thing that sets this breed apart.

I think her head is very balanced. God I think many stud dog owners would be happy with 1/2 her jaw and head on one of their dogs. She was beautiful. I hope your Marsha Clone turns out as nice as Marsha

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

When you are in front of your dog holding its head, dont cover his muzzle, or anypart of the profile view of the head with your hand position. Unless your hiding something! lol

The examples Elizabeth uses show the layback as it should be from tip of the jaw to top(back) of the skull.
To accomplish this you need LENGTH and SWEEP OF UNDERJAW...We have gotten so used to this fault that when you see a correct layback it looks odd. Once you have the true picture of Correct Layback in your mind you will have a very difficult time being able to appreciate what others consider good or great heads...
A good way to see and compare layback is when a judge has the class face out, move to where you can see the profile veiw where you get a great view of the classes head profiles one next to the other.

..and while I wish she had a little more length, she still falls within my own persoanl limits for "ok" in muzzle length.

I have heard people complain that Marsha's muzzle was too short and she was not lacking in jaw at all.
e

mix words when they say a dog is short faced they should be saying lacking in lenght of lower jaw. From what i have noticed this his what they are talking about vs the lenght of face

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

These discussions are awesome, thank you guys so much!

BUT WHEN I READ THIS PORTION:
Face & Muzzle
The face, measured from the front of the cheekbone to the tip of the nose, should be extremely short, the muzzle being very short, broad, turned upward and very deep from the corner of the eye to the corner of the mouth.

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I READ: THE WORDS SHORT- EXTRMELY SHORT FROM CHEEKBONE TO TIP OF NOSE THEN MUZZLE SHORT AS WELL...IF DISTANCE WERE AS SHORT AS IT READS, WOULDNT THAT BE SHORT FACED..OR DOES THIS GO BACK TO BEING BALANCED...

WHEN I SEE THOSE PICS..I THINK OF THE MUZZLE NOT BEING SHORT, NOR DO I SEE THE DISTANCE FROM THE CHEEKBONE TO THE TIP OF THE NOSE BEING ALL THAT SHORT EITHER..
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Try to apply this same sentence to, say, a boxer.
"The face, measured from the front of the cheekbone to the tip of the nose, should be extremely short"
If that measuement was not so short, you would get a nosey dog.

The muzzle being short is a balance issue, but note this.."very deep from the corner of the eye to the corner of the mouth". If the dog's muzzle is too short, the corner of the mouth would be in front of the corner of the eye.
Compare these two. Trace a line from the corner of the eye to the corner of the mouth. On one dog, the muzzle is a proper length, the other it is short, the line from the corner of the eye has to go forward to reach the corner of the mouth.



This is a guide I use for "too short" in muzzle. It usually works out, sometimes there are exceptions. Shortness in muzzle is a matter of opinion. Some people are terribly turned off by it, many people have become soo used to it that it seems normal to them. But the standard references "very deep from corner of the eye to corner of the mouth" "Deep" cannot be measured sideways, in my opinion.
e

thank you for sharing the pictures of layback! I see so many dogs with the "shelf" these days. I really don't think a lot of people understand what layback is and what it should look like.

in addition to "dish-faced" I am seeing a loss of angle. Picking up the jaw so the dog is looking at the sky is not what is meant by a 45 degree angle. Faces are looking straighter--foreheads are losing slope (wish I could draw to illustrate my meaning)

Miriam Olesen
http://www.omegabulldogs.shutterfly.com/

I am seeing quite a few heads in the ring lately that I would describe as "dish-faced". In stead of getting the straight line from forehead-tip of nose-jaw the profile appears curved with the nose set back out of line.

Miriam Olesen
http://www.omegabulldogs.shutterfly.com/

HERE IS WHERE I AM OFTEN CONFUSED...
NOW WHAT I INVISON AS A CORRECT HEAD IS ONE THAT IS SIMILAR TO THE PICS YOU ARE SHOWING. TO ME THIS A BRICK SHAPED HEAD- CORRECT LAYBACK ETC.

BUT WHEN I READ THIS PORTION:
Face & Muzzle
The face, measured from the front of the cheekbone to the tip of the nose, should be extremely short, the muzzle being very short, broad, turned upward and very deep from the corner of the eye to the corner of the mouth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I READ: THE WORDS SHORT- EXTRMELY SHORT FROM CHEEKBONE TO TIP OF NOSE THEN MUZZLE SHORT AS WELL...IF DISTANCE WERE AS SHORT AS IT READS, WOULDNT THAT BE SHORT FACED..OR DOES THIS GO BACK TO BEING BALANCED...

WHEN I SEE THOSE PICS..I THINK OF THE MUZZLE NOT BEING SHORT, NOR DO I SEE THE DISTANCE FROM THE CHEEKBONE TO THE TIP OF THE NOSE BEING ALL THAT SHORT EITHER..



Rhiann @ Butlerbullz

But do not ever admire a dog who does not have the basics down over a dog that has just one singular feature going for him.

e

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meant to say;

Do not ever admire a dog who does not have the basics down over a great dog that has a flaw or fault or two.
Sorry.
e

If you don't have the basic shape, it is pointless to debate the particulars.

What good is a pretty jaw if the forehead is domed or "shelfy"?
Just as an example.

I see lots of judges nit pick a very good dog out of the ribbons, only to award a dog that is just average.


If a dog has a great head shape, then you can debate the finer features such as nose placement, eye shape, jaw width, ears, etc...
But do not ever admire a dog who does not have the basics down over a dog that has just one singular feature going for him.

e

visualizing the shape first helps so much in understanding the breed. Too many people concentrate on each feature first before understanding the basic shape.
From the side, here is the shape;

or

From the front;

Agreed

Now if we could get all-rounders to understand that.....

really, not so dishy in the muzzle, he just does not have enough chop to fill the space.

To be all on the right plane a dog needs to have sufficient lift and tip of muzzle and turn of jaw to bring all those features up to the proper plane. And it takes depth of skull and sufficient length of muzzle and jaw to do that. Too short is the enemy of up.

***********************************

It also has to have a long, flat forehad. I have seen up-turned muzzles finish with shelfy or apple headed foreheads.

so if the head structure was better and the dog had more length of jaw would it be so much of a shelf?

I dont know if i have seen a dog with a shelf and also have lenght & turn up of jaw.

***********************************
A dog absolutely CAN have a shelfy forehead and a good muzzle and jaw at the same time. As a a matter of fact, many of them do and since the muzzle is ok, people forgive the shelfy (not flat) foreheads.

On the other hand, some people get glamorized by flat foreheads and forgive a little length in jaw.

I say shelfy in the forehead, dishy in the muzzle.

I have no problem seeing it. Lovely.