What determines a good breeder?


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What determines a good breeder?

It has been discussed here lately what would determine a successful breeder.
How many Champions produced?
Would you have to consider #'s of pups produced?
Breeders that produce consistent quality and bring consistent good quality to the ring?
How would a breeder be lumped into this category? Would they have to have bred more than a couple of Champions?
Breeders that back up issues that may Adminse in their pups growing stages and work with the owners, on top of, all of the above?
Just interested in how one views these questions.


Kelly Franz
BCA HOF Breeder
www.imperiousbulldogs.com

NikkiandJulie's picture

I completly agree with you!!!

A good breeder does not have to show. They just have to be interested in breeding healthy dogs with wonderful temperments and good conformation. They need to do helath screenings on their dogs ad keep a record of the health of the puppies they have bred all through adulthood. They need to put the health of their puppies and dogs above any monetary consideration. They should never breed a litter unless they are willing and able to keep THE ENTIRE LITTER! if suitable buyers are not found.

They need to be able to tell someone "I do not think my puppy is right for you" Meaning of course, "I do not think YOU are right for this puppy"

A good breeder needs to be available to help the buyers of their pups for the life of the pup.

Oh well, that is just my opinion.

A Good and Successful Breeder

I am not a breeder.. and even far fetched from a Bulldog breeder..So, what qualifies me to take a jab at this subject? Nothing.. I am not qualified as a breeder but the reason that I posted is to voice my opinion about the breeders that I have been in contact with in the last few years since my quest for a good "show hopeful". Some breeders are nice, supportive and knowledgeable, some are nasty, snobbish and even down right rude and deceitful but how they treat people makes them bad breeders? No, it just makes them a bad people and miserable to deal with.
To me a good and successful breeder is someone who CONSISTENTLY breed nice dogs that conform to standards. Who only looks at Champion dogs and bitches in their lines as the validations of their knowledge and expertise and not the making of who they are and should never be the marketing tool. A successful breeder would welcome new people who are interested in the breed and willing to take the lead to pass on the knowledge. The key word here is PASSING IT ON...Success needs to have successors.
I know some breeders out there who are not yet a Hall of fame breeders or having any dogs campaigned in the special class, but their knowledge of the breed, quality of the dogs they breed, and most of all their interest in people who want to learn about their dogs won my respect hands down. On the other spectrum, there are several others, whose fame and prestige of many Champions are world renown but are they successful, in a sense, yes but if they do not pass on the knowledge to the SUCCESSor who will carry on the legacy of their breed, to me those breeders are just half way there.

DeniseG's picture

Wow, that is a question I have asked many times over

I don't show and would never considering breeding bulldogs until I am retired and can spend the time needed for raising a litter of puppies. I guess the breeders I question whether they are breeding for the betterment of the breed are the ones that I see constantly having litters hand-over-foot. How many females do you need to own that are producing puppies and using the excuse that you are bettering the breed? I've seen websites where there are at least 4 different females that have all had puppies. There are 5 to 10 puppies in each litter. Now let's do the math. You are looking at approximately $72,000 in puppies. And that is figuring it on the low side. I understand wanting to continue to breed and keep a great line going, but sometimes I just get a bit skeptical. How many breedings does it take for a breeder to finally realize this girl is not producing what I want.

Great point!

I agree with most everything said without doubt...

A point that Kelly made about breeding for herself and her program and better bulldogs etc is really really important...I often tell people who are looking to buy a bulldog to get one from a reputable breeder b/c that person is a CONSUMER OF HIS/HER OWN PRODUCT, as such...so why would he/she try to breed anything but the best they can...and if they have to wait for apuppy and it costs a little more than the puppy lady down the road who breeds and sells 4 litters a year, it is b/c she is just that, a seller...someone who breeds to make money from the breed and is not a consumer of her own product so she doesn't need to be as concerned with health, temperament et al....and the general future of the dog.
I am even a non prolific stud dog owner b/c I feel responsible for the puppies that might be produced from that union so I rarely use my champion male...my nightmare is finding Atlas in the 4th or 5th generation of a puppy mill or pet shop bulldog...aggghhhhh!! The nightmares I have over those kind of things.
I don't have the Knowledge to be a really good breeder yet and my number of dogs is small and I want to keep it that way...I work hard on thinking things through and checking them out with anyone I respect, particularly my mentor...feedback and new ideas are always needed for me.
It still seems that the more I know that I realize that I know so, so , so little.
Lorraine

Lorraine
Home of Kar-isma Bulldogs
Find us on:
www.karismakennels.com

MyToyBulldogs's picture

Re: Good Points...

What I was trying to get across is everyone has to look at both sides of the coin, which I can truly say we have been on both of those sides... Forever asking the question "Why"...
What I attribute to most of our success, for instances, is the fact that we were lucky enough to find GREAT Mentors and hopefully have been good mentors in return. That's all we can ask for and or do...
I also see from your last post that we are in total agreement...
Terri
HOF
MyToyBulldogs

Dennis
MyToyBulldogs
http://www.mytoybulldogs.com

Good Points...

Terri,
Thank you for pointing out things "behind the scenes'.. I do not clump all "breeders" in one category and it was not my intention to bash any particular breeder.No, not at all. Yes, I agree with you that there are times that it takes two to build a healthy mentorship and it also takes two to deteriorate any relationship. I just merely express the exeperience that I have had.. and when we meet in person, we can talk more about that...LOL.
I know that breeding is a labor of love which involves much sweat, hope and tears so when once the promise was broken or not honnored, it can be detrimental. I do not claim to make any statements here...and I know myself would not be able to walk into a breeder's shoe for one minute and survive, so, I have nothing but respect for them...But if you read my original post, I did say that the way that breeders treat people.ie. experienced fellow breeders or newbie alike ( or how aloof or snooty or whatever attitude they choose to have) does not make them bad breeders but only make it is more difficult for the inexperienced to approach and learn from them... but I do respect your point of view and take it to heart that there are much to learn from breeders old or new, experienced or not. To me, everyone has something to share in his/her own way.

Best Regards,


George

Re: What determines a good breeder?

Hi Kel,

The quality of a breeder can be considered in various ways. However, for me, a quality breeder is one that is responsible and holds himself or herself accountable to the Breed always. In dealings with newcomers, in associations with puppy buyers, interacting with fellow fanciers, a quality breeder considers how actions and decisions in and outside of the ring will do well for the Breed. Thus, the things that we all read about such as being available to puppy buyers for questions and concerns, helping with Breed education, etc. etc. all come into play.

The quality of a breeder is also determined by the quality of the dogs that a breeder produces. Let's be honest here, just about anything can be finished and can be labeled as a Champion of Record. With that in mind, it would only be logical to take each dog and qualify its actual quality in type, soundness, temperament and health. Titles and accolades do not create quality in dogs. We've all had dogs that are likely good enough to finish but we know very well that they do not represent the final picture that we want to paint so we may not necessarily prioritize them.

The bottom line for me is how a person will act in particular situations, whether the actions will benefit the Breed or not, AND the quality of the dogs.

Jay

MyToyBulldogs's picture

Re: KUDOS to you!!

I believe you have a point there George... but a lot of the top breeders begin to experience "Burn Out"... that's where they have been lied to, lied about, and just plain taken advantage of... that's probably why some newer people to the breed might feel these breeders are stuck up, only out for themselves and or the ribbons, as well as why some of these seasoned breeders stay to themselves... looks can be deceiving... you have to walk a mile in their shoes to make any statements like that and have it be factual. Winning is not easy as it looks, I promise you...
When getting ready to breed I look at the winning record plus the amount of litters it took to produced their champions. I look to see if fellow breeders see the same good bulldog like we do (going to the Specialties and watch the judging as well as the winning). After all I'm not considering breeding to any one of them lol but breeding to their stock.
Here's another scenario you may find interesting as to why breeders might act as you think they do... I personally know of times when contracts weren't honored, puppies were not given back, all the breeders hard work was wiped away by lies, only to suit these new peoples and or others needs at the time. So.... If you want a long time breeder to be honest, mentor and be there for you these days you just may have to prove your self worth not the other way around. The breeders you may want to deal with have already proved themselves many times over, that's in the ring and the whelping box...JMHO
I'm not trying to be mean I'm just trying to give you a feel of what just might be going on behind the scenes.


Terri
HOF Breeders
MyToyBulldogs

Dennis
MyToyBulldogs
http://www.mytoybulldogs.com

successful

Just the first question. Newbies may really enloy this !!1
Go to thebca.org and click on BCA HAll OF Fame, Champions and Preformaance Title Site. Under On'Line resources.
Here you can check up on yourself as well as other breeders "success". Enter a person's last name.
The options are to type in bred-by which means the person had to have produced/bred the dog. Or owned by, which means the person may have purchased said dog if the breeder is also not themselves.
A newbie can determine a certain kind of success this way. Some breeders may not have much come up which may be because they have not have been showing bulldogs for long. So it doesn't mean that they will not become successful, but they are trying. And some people just can't go to enough shows to be successful. But the information leaves no doubt of breeders that are truely successful in their breeding program. Even though I have only just made it up to 10 bred by with a few extra that I just finished bred by someone else. I am humble to those that have done so much better and I am not envious either. I just do my personal best that I can. And I am very happy for the others and hope for them more success.

Very Good Points...n/m



Kelly Franz
BCA HOF Breeder
www.imperiousbulldogs.com

Good Post KELLY

I agree 100% with what you posted, Kel.

Jay

KUDOS to you!!

Kelly,
I am speaking in general terms here... if you can get the priority straight and do not let other variables get the best of you and are not easily swayed by others, then good for you!!
Many started out as you described; breeding for themselves but then the winning streak starts getting ugly and people will do anything just for the sake of winning ribbons...
I am glad that you still keep your head straight and do things that will best benefit the breed through your breeding plans...

Regards,
George

ickytazz's picture

my opinion

A good breeder is one who does very selective breeding matching the best dog and bitch to make a new generation of show prospect puppies. Health, temperment and conformation is a must.

Quality vs Quanitity is a very large factor to me with a stud. I could care less if he sired 50 champions, out of 500 litters, that is not very good odds IMO. I want a stud who is producing consistent puppies when breed to quality bitches, you should see it in thier get.

i want someone who is able and willing to answer questions, open to new opinions and willing to teach as well as learn from others.

Many of my mentors put the dogs before themselfs, they will go with out in order for the dogs to have the best.

Vicky

Vicky, Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://www.rubarbsoap.com/
Bulldog Club of Greater Seattle

What determines a good breeder

Well since this is the show forum....I guess wins in the ring count.But,I think we must always consider health.The objective of most "show breeders" are to produce confirmationally correct dogs.If a dog is "confirmationally correct" but has/develops inherent health issues...have you/I/we bettered the breed?I also beleive that mentoring can and should be a priority to all who breed.Let's all encourage each other and "newbies".Good Lord knows we we all "newbies" once.And thank you Kelly for your help/advice and most especially ELVIS!!

In a way

I disagree...I breed for myself and not to beat jo blow in the ring. I breed to better the health of my line and to better the breed. When i go to nationals and do well it is just icing on the cake. I would still love my dogs and continue to improve. What motivates me is, not to be the best, but to produce...imo the best I can for my next generation. I think the egos can get the best of people and I am not in this for mine to be stroked....jmo

Kelly Franz
BCA HOF Breeder
www.imperiousbulldogs.com

isabully4u's picture

A good breeder

Is someone whose Passion for the breed makes it their life's work. With this intense passion a good breeder will have multiple champions, will automatically breed for better health, temperament, and confirmation. a good breeder will be willing to be mentored and mentor others all the way through. Everything done will be for the breed and not self.

Deej

Thank you for the Points to ponder...

Kelly,
I appreciate the acknowledgement...We all want to be the best, the only one and the source of knowledge and that can be the cause for unruly arguments, nastiness and grudges..
So, your question of what determines a good breeder can be debated for days on out...So, I just tried to take a jab at what is applicable to me and how I feel. I thank you for the opportunity to voice my opinion..Again, good topic of discussion.

Regards,

George

my answer

Champions mean something. It shows their dedication to the breed. I really am not interested in how many they have in the Hall of Fame or how many Champions they have finished...but that is icing on the cake. I have had people come up to me after showing or before showing and tell me what they think about the dogs in the ring. If they have yet to finish a dog i let it go in one ear and out the other. not to say that ther eis nothing to learn from them, but as a newcommer I want thier words to be backed by proff.

I want to see commitment to thier line and commitment to me. I want a relationship with them for the life of my dog and beyond....
If they have bred several litters then i want to see pics of the litters to see if they have accomplished their goals. I want to see improvement in thier breedings and consistancy to thier type if its what i like. I want them to be honest in where they have not been successful. Honest about health and honest about the answers they provide to me in mentoring me along on journey.
If I own a bitch from a breeder I want them to be able to mentor me in finding a suitable stud and be available when I have questions reguarding breeding.
That is what i look for.


Jacinda and the bullies's picture

What I am looking for in a breeder

I think a good breeder is one that cares enough to have health screenings performed on their dogs. I think a good breeder breeds for health and temperament first and then confirmation.

A good breeder is someone that will be their for you if you need help. I know I had so many questions with my first bulldog and usually turned to this website for answers.

A good breeder will not breed just as a way to make money. They will only breed if they can improve the breed.

I don't think a good breeder should be solely judged on how many champions they have. I think they should be judged more so on how many healthy puppies they produced and how many (if any) genetic defects those puppies have.

I am not a breeder and I don't know if I could everbe one. To me, breeding can be so heartbreaking and that is why I applaud those who care enough to try and better this breed we all love so much.

I don't think I really answered your questions but, these are the things that I look for in breeders.

Good Post George

Well said.....it is important fro breeders to pass on and share in their success. There are many times that in doing so they get burned, so it may make them more cautious....but IMO the truly wise people that show interest shine through therefore are able to share in the wisdom of their successor...or mentor.
Then there are those that think they can buy a puppy and do it on their own without guidance....thinking that, an own their own approach, will in some way make them better and more noticed not taking note that they are in a sense destroying what was handed to them. I have seen this happen in many lines. Anyways good points.


Kelly Franz
BCA HOF Breeder
www.imperiousbulldogs.com

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