When is small too small?
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When is small too small?
Submitted by rhianniam on April 20, 2010 - 10:18pmA while back i took in a 3 year old female into our Rescue Group. She was a mere 32 pounds when she came to me...alittle thin for her size as she had been loosing weight. Her standard weight was about 38 pounds. She was bred befre comming to us, had 7 pups all weighing over a pound. After carrying these pups she could no longer walk....it blew out her knees. many of you already know her story....
Since this i have encountered several phone calls and have evaluated several bitches in my geographical area in ragard to breeding. I am by no means an expert nor do claim to be one when they meet me. I only offer suggestions and try to educate them in making the right decsion..
But am i really?
I see so many posts on the forums of bitches about the same size all of which breeders are using. They have Ch titles and or lovely Pedigrees and are nice examples of the Bulldog Standard...
So what factors play in when each of decide to breed your very standard 40 pound bitches? When choosing studs do you consider what he throws size wise? Do you look for only really standard males to breed with? Do you ever get hips and patellas checked prior to breeding them? Have you ever had a bitch go lame afterwards?
I know alot of questions... but i am looking for answers....
I have three local people loooking to breed. No matter what they are going to do it. I can only offer to help and educate. I have made it very clear to each of them that they could loose thier bitch regarless of her size. I can not save the world but i can sure die trying!
I am just stummped....My area is becomming flooded with poor quality Bulldogs due to the Fresno State Mascot..and now that the Bulldog is back on the top 10..I believe it will get worse. So go to the source right ? It starts with breeding.
Oh and so ya know..the vets are oking for these people to breed thier bitches..all 3 have been give a clean bill of health and the go light.
check out my site!
K-9 Kozy
custom crate pads for your bullies
http://www.geocities.com/rhianniam@sbcglobal.net
Re: When is small too small?
Well I have never bred English Bulldogs but I have bred and have experience with short, shortback dogs.
In my opinion the shorter, shorter back girls are at a bit more risk than the larger females. It can become a problem more so than a regular sized female in terms of birthing the pups and carrying full term.
But it is a risk regardless of the dog is health tested or not. When breeding you should always expect the worse and hope for the best.
Just let them know of the possible dangers and that is all one can do. If a person is going to breed they are going to breed no matter if the dog is health tested, short, long, fits the standard or not
we bred our 45lb girl (small and ribby)
Trinket was fine until the last 10 days. She had 6 pups in there and gained 15lbs. In the end if she drank water, and burped it came out her nose. I was a nervous wreck !! She went into labor early we found out later if was because her uterus was rupturing. She lost so much blood but we saved her. Within a week she had metritis and we started losing puppies.
She had been health tested, x-rayed and was 2.5 years old. I bred her to a small male because I was worried about breeding a standard size bitch. None of the pups were over 13 ounces. Her mom who was 48-50lbs but longer had 2 litters of 8 with no problem. As soon as the vet gave me the green light I had Trinket spayed. I could not even think of breeding her again.
Now I am looking at her daughters and the smallest girl is the one I like the best.... Do I keep her and show her and breed her? I'm tempted to keep one of the larger girls to show instead. I will always be worried to breed a smaller girl now.
Deej
very sad
it saddens me when i see breeders do what they do, example
having 10 + bitches breed, and it's so sad, there living conditions are horrable. kept in a dirty fithy kennel just used for breeding for prophets, not to mention that most females usually have some kind of genatic effect, such as inverted tails commonly in the bulldog breed, and very bad allergies, skin problems.
i was one of them people 6 years ago that rushed to buy a bulldog puppy, i paid 1000 and it was "nkc" reg, VERY BAD!
but didnt know then, this cute little 6 week bulldog puppy turned in to a 68 pound dominate aggressive, not to mention overwhelming problems of skin infections and allergies i had to tend to.
this bulldog was very very hyper, i walked her and she nerver tired. her hyperness turned into aggression and i ended up getting bit in my upper lip, she sliced my lip totally in half, i had to get 15 stiches, and i have to children 5 and 6 and i wooried about there wellbeing, she showed some aggression to them as well, so unfortunality i had to put her to sleep, i did Not want that to happen to anyone.
even though this happend, i did not hate the bulldog breed, instead i did my research, read, talked to experienced breeders, and i ended up acually saving my little baby i have today.
when i got her she was in a cage with her feces, she only weighed 25 pounds and had a horriable yeast infection in her ear, she had a infection under her wrinkles and had tapeworms, i looked at her shaking in her cage with her sad brown eyes, she needed me and at the time i needed her as well, she is a very nervous dog she had been abused by her other owners, she is very scared of loud noises and brooms. so 6 months went by, and she weighed 38 pounds, now 3 years later she weighs 45 very healthy, very devoted to me, follows me every where i go, even the bathroom lol
she gets lots of spoiling, and love.
i love her so much she is my baby girl!!!!!!
You would...
I always said there was no way we could either... Turns out you can do amazing things in a panic. We lost our Virginia in October (who by the way was a on the longer side with a great spring of rib) we did it. She was carrying 9 babies and seemed ok. We were getting ready to go in to the vet to have her checked out because she was so big... she was still very alert and in seconds she was gone. She died in my lap. We knew it was the only chance to save the babies and we knew we owed her that after her giving her life for the babies... unfortunately we couldnt save a single pup. It was the worst thing I have ever experienced, and was the latest in a string of really really sad occurances for us and our dogs.
I thougth long and hard about ever breeding again. We did end up just breeding my Alfie to a gal I co-own and I am scared to death of what could happen to her now if she takes. She is 4 and has never had a litter before so on one hand I want it to take, on the other I hope it doesnt.
Dawn
Woman you are more woman than I think I will ever be. I agree with you tho-if the bitch gave her life for them, I would owe it to her to try to save her babies-I am so sqwemish(is that an actual word)?? I would do what I had to do, but that would be devastating; lose the bitch and have to hold it together long enough to cut her open. Bless your heart-I can see where you would be nervous about breeding again. I've never lost a bitch or a litter, but I know the longer I am in this, the more my odds go up. I just hope I can keep it together thru it if it ever happens.
Good luck with your upcoming breeding.
Laura
cutting the bitch open at home
Oh my-I pray I am never in this situation-I would be a basket case having lost my bitch-cutting her open I don't think I could do-I guess I wouldn't know unless put in that situation-but I pray it never happens...
Laura
I found..
if you take a medicine dropper you can collect enough saliva just inside the lip area..also you need to put a drop on to get good ferning..I also used the blower to expedite things. This worked well for me..that and asking Shelly a million questions a day..I love it though it's very interesting.
I just open the mouth
and slide the slide across the tongue.
Shelly uses plastic slides, i use glass you have to be careful
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://langagerbulldogs.tripod.com
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
I can't even imagine
Day 53 !!! I agree it can happen in either case . I just can't imagine having to have to cut her open at home like that . I thought I was going to have to do the same with our last litter on day 56 . She was filled with water and couldn't even lay down any more. She went into labor and I had a heck of a time saving 3 , I didn't sleep for the first 4 days.
How did she manage ??
Margie
http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/
http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs
See
But your bitches have a top line so I think the structure has to be there too .
The bitch I'm talking about is VERY short backed , she's all rib then ass ( sorry ) there's nothing in between. I do have a standard size bitch that I wouldn't have a problem breeding but she's built differant , she's got a little more length there.
I wanted to try the saliva test but I couldn't figure out how to collect,I tried the spoon lol Vicky explained it but I couldn't make it work.
Margie
http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/
http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs
i agree, we are using slides and that is the main way i breed
we are now using saliva as well and if shipping we get atleast 1 progesterone to make sure we are over 5.
This was told to me.
If you have a smaller bitch dont breed her so many times. We have always breed 3 times. So with smaller bitches this person said to only breed twice.
what they were saying is if you breed say day 14, 16, and 18 only breed day 14 & 16.
We breed day 14, 15, & 17 depending on the slides. One bitch was day 3 by progesterone.
I thought it was a strange.
Bella is 42lbs
1st litter 4 puppies, she was rolling on her back in the yard the day of her section.
2nd litter 6 puppies, would not have even known the difference, she was just her self.
Lil is 40 lbs
1st litter 4 puppies, running and playing the day before the section.
2 litter 8 puppies, she never stopped eating or playing with the kids. She slowed down coming in the house as her boobs were on the floor and she was HUGE.
Breve' is a bigger girl 55lbs
1st litter 7 puppies normal activity, she gets very lazy after being breed.
2nd litter 6 puppies normal activity, lost 4 puppies, we think due to an infection in the horn.
Holly is a fat 50lbs, should be about 45
1st litter no change running all over like a freak show. she had 2 large puppies she gained 14lbs.
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://langagerbulldogs.tripod.com
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
Short vs. Long
I co-own a girl , that her mother ( a very long back bitch) dropped over dead at 53 days gestatation with 9 pups in her. Luckily the co-owner and breeder saved her and a sister (who is now a Ch), by cutting the bitch open at home.
On the same aspect, I have a standard sized girl .....42#, short backed (whose mother was also a standard sized girl (2 litters ...one of 8, one of 6) excellent little mother and had no difficulty carrying these pups.
So...in either case long vs. short backed it could happen. Will I be a nervous wreck when she is eventually bred?? YOu betcha....I LOOOOOOOVE this girl...so I will take every precaution I can when I do....and then be the most obsessive person about her....the vets, and my friends will end up hating me....lol.
Vicky
We've been breeding off slides only and have been successful 4 out of 5 times. We only breed twice when the cells are right . We quit counting days too and now do the target tests. I think Sonny is right , it just depends on how many eggs drop.
Margie
http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/
http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs
Re: i have a question
"so if you have a smaller bitch do you breed her only twice vs 3times in hope to get a smaller litter".
This sentence doesn't make sense. Can you clarify?
BTW, bitches can die full of puppies regardless of size. If you are concerned with that, get a thorough heart check (echo!) before you breed her.
You should be doing that anyway.
e
Re: i have a question
I don't think it would matter? I normally breed 2 times. It would all depend on how many eggs she had at that time? I'm no reproductive expert by any means..lol Heck I use to count days up until a year ago, now I do target tests. Maybe someone here knows how that all works?
I just remembered my other bitch weighed 45lb and had 9 and she handled it better than my other one that weighed 60lb and had 7..
Sonny
www.armadagroomandboard.com Sonnyduebulldogs
Detroit Bulldog Rescue
http://groups.msn.com/DetroitBulldogRescue
A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than he loves
himself.
-Josh Billings
i have a question
so if you have a smaller bitch do you breed her only twice vs 3times in hope to get a smaller litter.
Not sure that works in reality.
Lil is 40lbs soaking wet. Her first litter we breed her over 3 days no skipping and she has 4 big babies. Her last litter we breed her over 2 days and we must have been right on as she had 8 big babies. Lil is out of a litter of 6
Vicky
Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly
http://langagerbulldogs.tripod.com
PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.
Agree
With Sonny but there are still exceptions . Lately there have been several bitches that dropped over dead loaded with puppies , this isn't anything new . I have a bitch here that concerns me in regard to breeding her.
She's very short backed and came from a litter of 10 , we all know that genetics plays a part in litter size to some degree. Carrying a heavy litter would would put this bitch in danger.
Margie
http://www.jambullsbulldogs.com/
http://www.myspace.com/jambulls_bulldogs
Re: When is small too small?
I have bitch that is 41lb, she just had 3 pups over a pound, that are 12 weeks old and was just back in the ring this past weekend. She was heath screed before she was bred along with x-rays. As with any dog as long as they are healthy and sound they should be fine.
Sonny
www.armadagroomandboard.com Sonnyduebulldogs
Detroit Bulldog Rescue
http://groups.msn.com/DetroitBulldogRescue
A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than he loves
himself.
-Josh Billings
to be honest, this bitch was prob not in good shape
to start with.
We have breed 2 different girls that are in the low 40's w/o any problems.
Here is what I consider
I try to show all my dogs/bitches in the ring prior to using them for breeding. Reason being we can all be kennel blind and think our dogs are wonderful but unless they can prove it in the ring then IMO they are not worthy to be bred from. I try to keep as close to the standard weight as possible, this is important to me.
All my bully's have their hips, spine & shoulders x rayed, their patella's checked and their trachea size measured prior to breeding.