ShermanK avatar image

Opinions?

Natures variety instinct.. 35% Protein too high? Or do you think it's ok? Sherman is eating the instinct LID and is doing pretty good that is at 29%. Only problem is he doesn't like it much at all. They also have the raw boost that is 36% which I was guessing would be too high as well. But I have a feeling he would like that because he likes when I put the real raw in there even if its just a little bit. Anyway, opinions on the instinct and instinct boost would be appreciated. Seems to be the brand that works for him..

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

Oh and..

Not really "brand" but it doesn't contain potato which I'm starting to think may be one of his issues possibly and why the natural balance only improved the yeast smell and congestion but not the itchiness.. I think..

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-Sherm was here. 

IndyBulldog™'s picture

My dogs

When my dog, Brother would not get up off the couch for breakfast, I knew there was something wrong

A couple times a year I hear of animals on kibble being poisoned and dying by their food or some stuff from China in the food we have never heard of I was further convinced.

When every other post on BDW is on itchy, yeasty, food changing issue post.....I'm thinking....there is no good food for my dogs that comes from the pet food manufacturers.  And I fed the best, the most expensive, most exotic blends.....like everyone else with food issues.

But when the dog would not eat, was bloated, and listless...not to mention skin issues, I went to raw.

Others don't feed raw.  A lady I know raises the most beautiful Bullies I have ever seen on Eukanuba.  And I have no idea on it.

I try to use a 80/10/10 model of 80% meat10% bone and 10% organ as close as I can get, without giving myself a nervous breakdown...[remember you are feeding your dog, not brain surgery] and the dogs tell me how I'm doing

Also some fish once in a while, and a fish oil cap everyday. 

I also use a filter on my faucet and further filter the water in a Brita pitcher...for tear stains, not working yet, but the brita is new...maybe in time...

Good luck...there is a lot of info online and some raw feeders on BDW that will be glad to help, with advise.

No Matter what you do.........Good Luck

Steve

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Mean people still suck

ShermanK's picture

I most likely will

Eventually go total raw. Right now he's getting one medallion with 1/2 cup of kibble each meal. (Natures variety duck frozen raw and natures variety limited ingredient kibble) he's doing pretty well. So far.. My problem is that I don't really know for sure what he is allergic to and not allergic to.. Started thinking it was chicken, then went to lamb and rice, then went to rabbit and potato and now NV. So it seems that there is a few things honestly as far as proteins and grains/potato.. . Who knows yet. I can tell u this tho. Beef. Bad reaction. And lamb same. Violent terrible reaction. But yet this natures variety raw contains lamb bone. Not sure if that's enough to really show but I see it on the ingredients. Yet, if I let him try a handful of the same limited ingredient diet kibble (natures variety) lamb.. Terrible reaction. Hives and congestion and everything else. (The store let me have a little sample that's how I got that) so I am almost positive he's allergic to lamb and beef. Red meats? Also it seems grains too because he used to be super smelly and yeasty. This is actually the best I've seen him right now. The worst thing is the tear stains. By the way, why the hell do they add different proteins to these foods? Seems really stupid. Natures variety regular instinct salmon formula contains pork parts. The frozen duck contains lamb. The canned contains lecithin which I see usually come from soy which is stupid too. Even if I want to make my own raw I don't even know for sure what I can use. All I know is that with duck we seem ok so far and without grains and potato and lecithin we seem ok so far. That lamb bone being in the raw confuses me tho because its like a very obvious reaction twice now with lamb either grain free or not. Worst i ever saw was with lamb. Maybe it's a small amount or the bone doesn't contain much marrow? 

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

Oh lecithin..

Reason I bring this up is because there are these "vegetable" chews made in the Netherlands I forget the brand at the Moment but since he was really doing good I decided to let the poor guy get a chew (he gets to have nothing for at least two months now and hate nylabone) and bam. Slighty bad reaction. Went online found ingredients. Contains mostly potato, then there is also brewers yeast and lecithin. And it says "lecithin: from soy" that pissed me off because before I even got my puppy I read that soy is bad for bulldogs. Anyway, now I may even suspect the potato besides that too obviously. So I feel like I'm way closer to knowing than I was and extremely careful now with ingredients. 

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

I already knew they were made with potato

But I didn't suspect potato at all until he was better with no potato then had a reaction after a little chewing that thing. But I still suspect the lecithin. (Which natures variety has in some of their canned instinct) smh. 

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

And I don't know but

Sounds like lecithin isn't always from soy so I won't knock natures variety but this particular vegetable chew said it was from soy. 

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

This just made me mad

Found their ingredients twice now on two different places they have them and this one includes wheat starch when the other said nothing about wheat starch. Smh. I'm not rocket scientist or nutrition expert by any means but I bought this thing knowing it had potato because I didn't suspect potato. But I wouldn't have bought it at all if the word "wheat" anything was on the ingredient list and it wasn't. 

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-Sherm was here. 

CathyandAudrey's picture

it could be the glycerol

OR the "natural" flavorings OR colouring agents that are problematic for your dog. Or of course the wheat or potato. In other words, you just can NOT know for certain which ingredient it is that is a problem UNLESS you feed something that has NONE of them in it that he doesn't have a problem with.

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Cathy and Audrey  

CathyandAudrey's picture

It may NOT be the protein

he is reacting to! It MAY be the processing. Kibbled dog food's nutrients are added after it's been rendered, rendering pretty much destroys them. So he MAY be reacting to the stuff added back.

If you read those labels, there are so very many things in that bag he can be reacting to, chances are it's one of those other things and NOT the protein source that is the problem. 

My dog is SUPER ridiculously sensitve to anything processed. Even dehydrated raw, which has to be preserved with ....uggg sorry Brain dead right now and can't remembr! It's a very common, pretty 'natural' preservative, but she gets insanely itchy from it. 

Dogs have absolutely no need for dietary starches, of any kind. He MAY be reacting to them. 

We had to feed her SIMPLE, one meat source food (raw) for a bit to get her back to healthy, then we slowly started adding different proteins. She is allergic to chicken. 

In order to truly know what your dog is reacting to, you have to find a food that has NOTHING at all in it that he's had before. Much easier to just feed meat, either raw or cooked, from a single animal at a time to see if he reacts. Then if you really want to, add processed food back to see how he does. 

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Cathy and Audrey  

ShermanK's picture

Yea

Thanks. Yea he's doing pretty good now so I'm glad were at a safe zone for the time being. I plan on going totally raw I think. All I hear is good things. That method u tookmakes perfect sense but also scary at the same time because if his throat swells up because I decide to try feeding him the straight source accidentally I would feel terrible. And also end up in emergency honestly. And when i see that sort of reaction i feel really really terrible.. Only lamb (or at least foods with lamb..not sure cause I agree with what u said..) have really done that to him. Oh and im sorry beef too.. or at least anything beef related hes gotten ahold of..  a bully stick gave him red lips and hives on them back in the winter. could be what they treated it with.. who knows.. But now were at a point where he's not licking or chewing and not having a breathing issue so I'm gonna pause right here for a second since with this change of season I may have more problems for him ahead. Definately don't want to start confusing other possible allergies and food allergies and keep screwing around with him. I'm just glad he's feeling better. I was asking about the other instinct diets but I'm not even gonna try it. At least not right now. 

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

I think..

And I really mean I think.. He's ok with turkey and duck. But I'm not certain. I think I just need to watch him for a bit..  I guess I could always try it but I want to know what I'm doing really well preparing it right before I try it. I can say one thing.. His reactions tend to show up quickly like within an hr or 2 but they last a day or so before he seems ok.. So when he gets choked up its scary. While I'm at it my neighbors son is like 14 next door and the ambulance just came to take him to the hospital a couple of months ago. He is allergic to peanuts and all he did was eat a cookie that was on the same tray as peanut butter cookies and bam. Off he went.  I really worry that if Sherm got some beef off the floor he might get that bad.. 

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-Sherm was here. 

CathyandAudrey's picture

you should keep Benadryl on hand at all times

if he has reactions that severe. And periodically check it to make sure it's not expired! I get teh kind that dissolves on the tongue so I don't have to be concerned about her swallowing it, I only have to get it into her mouth. 

i would not risk the lamb or beef either, no point to really. If he is doing very well with no issues then stick to what works!

Preparing your own food is not hard, but I was worried I was gping to malnourish my dog too at first. You do get more comfortable with it. 

We really had no choice, she was not doing well on processed food. The difference was pretty dramatic!

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Cathy and Audrey  

ShermanK's picture

No

I definately am leaning that way. This poor guy ill do whatever he can eat the duck and Ill have the ramen pride if I have to. But for now just gonna be happy with "close". I def keep the Benadryl around in case. I have never seen that kind I need to go find some of that. But I honestly don't even know where to begin with home made raw. I could use some good trusted methods.. Maybe I will just give it a shot if the environmental stuff doesn't seem to be bothering him. (As if I will know that's actually what it is) by the way, I want to allergy test him but he's only 5 months in case u wonder why I haven't. 

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-Sherm was here. 

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Changing Food

You are changing his meals way to much to get any idea on what is or isn't working. Obviously if something is haaving an immediate reaction they you need to change, but it depends on what the reaction is. It takes a good 6 weeks for a food to get out of the system, so you need to find something that is working and stick with it for a good 6-8 weeks to get a good idea of what is working.

Lamb can be very hot/rich so I can see why it might not work, especially for a puppy.

Just relax .... keep him on the duck and see how it goes. Tear stains do not get better overnight, they can take weeks to clear.

I once tried Natures Variety Kibble and my dogs coats were dry and they were itchy on it. Even the raw patties are lacking in omegas so I always added Salmon Oil.

ShermanK's picture

He was on the natural balance for almost 7 weeks or so

Maybe that's not long enough? Either way I was actually talking to you and switched to natures variety lid and raw.. That's where he's been since. He had a taste of the natures variety lamb lid only because I'm feeding him the raw and it contains lamb so I gave hima taste and bad reaction. Maybe because its processed maybe because its cooked? But no I didn't switch his foods again. Ever since u recommended natures variety that's where I've been. Maybe the natural balance was still going to start working but without something like medication he was getting a little too crazy chewing his leg for me to let continue. Only reason I did. As far as that lamb taste and that chew veggie thing.. Learned a lesson from that one believe me. Bad move..

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

Sorry I'm wrong

Maybe 5 1/2 - 6 but no improvement at all.. So yea here I am again but he's doing good ill be patient. No more slips.. That's why I'll let him chew his kong brush for the moment lol. Poor guy. 

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

I mean poor guy

Because he doesn't get to have any chews or treats or anything. All in all he's doing a lot better on this than the natural balance and the improvement was pretty fast. Getting closer. And closer to raw made here too. (I wouldn't be able to afford NV anyway it's pretty pricey) but I def need help with how to go about starting that and everything to be safe..

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-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

Lol

Wasn't saying no to you I just was talking like a conversation how I talk. Forget sometimes no one can hear u. Lol

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-Sherm was here. 

Pegsy's picture

I used benadryl for kids w/my

I used benadryl for kids w/my archie,my vet said too

much dose can get them excessively thirsty,

glad shermie is doing better,

smoochies the scrunchy face

ShermanK's picture

Thanks

Yea he's busy right now going crazy with his kong brush he's not supposed to have but whatever. The poor guy needs something he likes to chew for the time being. Has little holes all over it lol

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-Sherm was here. 

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Protein % Kibble vs Raw

Cathy - in all your raw studies do you have a good way to explain that you can't use the same percentage in kibble compared to raw. Say 25% max protein is advisable in kibble ... but in raw that number compares much higher. I know it is how the body processes the raw meat vs the processed kibble but I don't have any articles that help to prove to him that he is not feeding too much protein if he's feeding raw. It's really like comparing apples to oranges.

CathyandAudrey's picture

It is the moisture, and bioavailability

Raw meat is around 60-75% water, kibble is around 10%. If you consider percentages of what's in raw meat, there isn't much besides protein and water.  Minerals,ligaments, etc..yes they are there, but the percentage of these is pretty small. So even though raw meat may be 20+ % protein, the vast majority of what your dog's body has to process and digest is water. Water is crucial to the liver's processing of protein, and transporting waste to the kidneys. The more water that dilutes the waste, the easier it is for the kidneys to filter the waste out. 

This makes the protein very very much bioavailable to a carnivorous dog. It is easily processed and little waste is produced.

The protein in kibble is very difficult to digest and process. Since it is so devoid of moisture, it forces the dogs liver to pull the moisture out of itself, putting a strain on the liver and the kidneys that also need water to function properly. It produces lots of waste, which the liver has to process and the kidneys have to remove.

The kibble bag lists CRUDE protein, which says absolutely NOTHING about how much of that is DIGESTIBLE. 

The SOURCE of protein in kibble is what's CRUCIAL, NOT the percentage!!  It does not matter if it's 80% protein, if that protein comes from mostly plants, or things like poultry beaks and feet, (which are HIGH high levels of mostly undiegstible protein) only a small fraction of that protien is actually able to be digested by the dog, the rest is useless waste that puts a big strain on the liver and kidneys and ends up in your back yard in a stinking nasty heap. 

So no you can not accurately compare moisture laden raw meat and dried up kibble. 

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Cathy and Audrey  

ShermanK's picture

Yea I'm starting to see

That there is good protein and junk protein I see how that could make a huge difference. Any good guides to share? Either you or Deb? Or anyone? I saw Cory just got into that too..

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-Sherm was here. 

CathyandAudrey's picture

Start SIMPLE

Can he eat chicken? Chicken is so easy because you can generally find so many different parts. (livers, boneless meat, heart, gizzards, etc)

Just remember the 80-10-10 guideline. 80% meat, 10% secreting organ(liver-kidney-pancreas), 10% bone.

MOST of what you need to feed is boneless meat.

Red meat is very important, but NOT YET! Start simple-the idea that animals need a "balanced" meal every time they eat is a myth. Get him on one meat for a few months, then try a new one. Pork is also a great red meat. 

He MAY be able to eat beef, you can't be sure until you try JUST MEAT, no other junk along with it, but do not try yet. 

Once his body has a chance to get rid of all the junk that's in processed food and his digestive enzymes have had a chance to naturalize, then you start makign sure he has a variety of proteins.

Kibble fed dog's bodies HAVE to adapt to digesting food they are not designed to digest. Their stomach ph changes. Kibble is a 'dead' food, there are NO enzymes in it. If you don't add them, there are none there. 

Which reminds me- ADD ENZYMES! Raw meat does have them, and after a while on raw your dog's natural gut flora will flourish, but if he's been fed kibble, you need to add some enzymes to get things right. 

Your dog's stomach ph will gradually adjust to it's more natural level also. Dogs stomachs are designed to digest bone and meat and quickly kill bacteria, their stomach ph is aropund 1-2 , (Omnivores have a stomach ph of around 5). It will take a little time for the ph and natural gut flora to all get happy together and work like God designed them to work. 

Bone should NEVER EVER EVER be fed cooked. It becomes brittle when cooked. They only need a LITTLE bit of bone. 10% is not that much at all. 

Everything else though can be fed cooked. FRESH and not processed, full of moisture and bioavailable to a carnivore is what's vitally important. 

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Cathy and Audrey  

ShermanK's picture

I wasn't doubting it or you

I am planning to go raw I pretty much understand the whole difference in a simple way. You take 100% piece of meat, dry it out, there's 20% protein actually there cause its all water mostly. I understand. Roughly lol. My concern is the proper way to do it. That's what I could use some tips with.. Grinder? Meat to start with? Everything actually. I've read some stuff but I'd rather hear from you guys what you think first..

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-Sherm was here. 

Pegsy's picture

steve those boys r seriously

steve those boys r seriously handsome!

smoochies the scrunchy faces

Pegsy's picture

steve those boys r seriously

steve those boys r seriously handsome!

smoochies the scrunchy faces

IndyBulldog™'s picture

HEADS UP

Introducing raw foods must be done on a schedule the dog can process.....like chicken at first adding more rich foods later....like beef and other meats.

Orgam meats must be added gradually as it can be too rich at first and cause runny stools..........small amounts at first to see I used a very small piece of raw beef liver...I froze it in small pieces and stored in a bag in the freezer

Thought this was important to mention.

Steve

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Mean people still suck