ShermanK avatar image

Any help with allergies appreciated

Sherman was doing really well but that was because he was taking tamaril p for a few weeks to ease his symptoms as he ate nothing but the natural balance rabbit and potato. As he weened off it he still seemed fine. Well now it's been gone for 5 days or so and now we are back to licking paws all the time, biting back legs, scratching his belly etc.. Obviously the food didn't work. Perhaps it's not a food allergy. And if it is would he really be allergic to rabbit and potato? I'm told not likely. So I'm a little bothered because what can I do now since I can't do allergy testing for another 7 months? I have seen people talk about missing link and nuvet supplement helping with allergies. Any truth to this? Also since he keeps having a clicking when he walks maybe a supplement would be good for that I'm told. I'm really frustrated watching him be frustrated. Any help is appreciated. 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

And..

No he has still not been given anything but the natural balance food. No treats and no toys that are edible. 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

Kathy Ollie Chester and Newman's picture

Our vet just gave us...

hydroxyzine for Newman for foot licking and itching.  It's better than benedryl according to him and doesn't have prednisone like TamarilP.  You might see if he can give you some.  Does Sherman walk on grass a lot?  Newman is bad when the bermuda is germinating, which is now, and our other boy was like that too.  He would scratch himself bloody this time of the year.  Tide detergent is also bad,  and other triggers can be rug shampoos, dog shampoos, cleaning agents, bug sprays, fertilizers, and on and on.  And it's always possible that the rabbit isnt agreeing with him.  We just switched Newman from duck potato to fish potato, but I haven't seen much relief from his itching yet, although the antihistamines have helped a lot.  Allergies can be frustrating, we did the testing with Oscar and he was allergic to bermuda grass too.  Hard to keep them off it out here though.  Hope Shermie starts feeling better.

ShermanK's picture

Thanks a lot

I may have to ask about that if the food doesn't help. I just went and got the natural balance sweet potato and fish yesterday just to try. I was looking at natures variety dry plus raw but the protein was really high. A store around here carries it. And I actually live in a condo that's more like an apartment complex and when this started a couple months ago he barely went outside yet except the porch so I guess it's not grass or the seasonal stuff. At least I don't think so. Switched detergent to an ALL perfume free back then, never use febreeze or carpet stuff anymore, the shampoo I use is magic coat oatmeal. Possibly that but the vet doubts it. Yes. Very frustrating. The cat poop is a possibility I guess but he couldn't even get near that when this began he was too small and didn't even figure out it was there yet. Lol. I'm hoping the fish helps a bit maybe his skin is dry adding to the problem. Well see. 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

And for anyone who read my stuff before..

Yes. That disturbing congestion sound is back slightly too. So I'm positive that was all allergy related now. 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

Pegsy's picture

how bout using benadryl

how bout using benadryl instead of the tamaril to atleast keep scrathing,paw licking,etc...to a minimum and under control,also did you give him anything different that you can think of?
pls keep us posted

ShermanK's picture

I just

Went and got some more while I was out actually. That's what I was doing before the tamaril but when he actually made his leg raw I gave in and let the vet give that. She mentioned it a bout a week before I decided to use it but I didn't want to mask the symptoms at first then I felt bad because he was doing bad so I went and got it. And no nothing else money thing possible is the cat box he occasionally gets into..

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Keep him out

of the cat poop and start trying other dog foods. I personally would not be giving Benadryl to a puppy on a regular basis. It's masking the problem. He is going to have severe allergies if he is already making himself raw at this age. When he's old enough for allergy testing I would get it done asap.

If he were mine I would put him on Natures Variety or Primal raw.

Poor guy.

ShermanK's picture

What's the deal

With natures variety and primal raw? Good for dogs with allergies? And I'd rather not give him Benadryl or anything else but it's either that or let him suffer until I figure it out. 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

RAW vs Kibble

I posted an article Raw 101 written by Dr. Karen Becker a few days ago.  Here's a link for starters -  http://healthypets.mercola.com/  I'm sure you you search the archives you will find many articles on the benefit of feeding allergy stricken dogs a raw diet.

Ingredient comparison:

Natures Variety Instinct Frozen Duck - Duck (including Raw Ground Duck Bone), Turkey Liver, Turkey Heart, Raw Ground Lamb Bone, Saccharomyces Cerevisiae (a natural source of B vitamins), Pumpkinseeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Apples, Broccoli, Butternut Squash, Salt, Cod Liver Oil, Dried Kelp, Dried Apples, Fruit Pectin, Carrots, Spinach, Natural Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols, Natural Vitamin E, Inulin, Blueberries, Parsley, Rosemary, Sage, Clove, Rosemary Extract.

Primal Raw Frozen -  Beef Heart, Beef Liver, Ground Beef Bone, Organic Chard, Organic Turnips, Blueberries, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary.

Primal Mixes are produced using only the freshest, 100% human-grade ingredients. Our poultry, meat and game are antibiotic and steroid free without added hormones. We incorporate certified organic produce for additional fiber and food-based vitamins and minerals. Primal Mixes are for supplemental feeding only and are designed for those pet owners who prefer to tailor their pets' individual supplemental needs. All Primal Mixes contain fresh ground bone for calcium supplementation.

Natural Balance Rabbit -  Potatoes, Rabbit, Potato Protein, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Beet Pulp, Natural Flavor, Flaxseed, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Salmon Oil, Vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin D-3 supplement, niacin supplement, biotin, riboflavin supplement, vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid), Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, sodium selenite, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate), Choline Chloride, Citric Acid and Mixed Tocopherols (preservatives), Rosemary Extract.

Potatoes are the first ingredient, a carb, dogs don't even need. The protein is the 2nd ingredient. Beet Pulp is a filler then the rest is stuff you can't even pronounce, all the natural vitamins and minerals they cook out that they put back in with a bunch of preservatives.  YUMMY

Kind of like feeding your human children mac & cheese every meal.  What I don't get is we all know that fresh fruits, vegies and fresh meats, fish, etc are much better for us then prepackaged dinners from a box and yet our vets try to tell us kibble is better for our dogs then organic whole meats, organs, fruits and vegies.  They really don't need the fruits and vegies either, but I feed some just because it makes me feel better.  

My dogs meal tonight - 

Kohl and Ester had Elk chunks (organic free range, no antibiotics or hormones) and Ground Duck (Columbia River Natural Pet Foods), Salmon Oil (Wild Alaskan)

MacKenzie had Ground Beef with Vegies, (Columbia River) Salmon Oil, Flax Seed  -  He needs the flax seed and vegies for added fiber because he has constipation problems.  He'll be 10 next month.

I fed kibble for years with no problems, most recently "Now" made by Pet Curean. My dogs always had gorgeous healthy coats and they don't have allergy issues, but I just couldn't stomach all the recalls and the articles I was reading about road kill, dead dogs and cats and the horrible crap that goes into dog food.   So I started with Natures Variety raw and kibble then 3 years ago I dropped the kibble, then 2 years ago I went to a totally raw diet.  I belong to a raw feeding co-op so I'm lucky to be able to get a huge variety of meats that are organically raised.

ShermanK's picture

Very informative

My only question is all I ever see is dont feed a growing bulldog pup high protein diets so does raw have a high protein level? From what I heard its very high. Does that matter that he is still growing? 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

I was looking at the kibble plus raw yesterday at petco

I didn't want to try because it wasn't grain free. And the protein level was like 36 or something like that. I have no problem going totally raw even if it will be better for him. I also can cook so making my own I wouldn't mind either. I just want to be sure it will really be the best thing for him. I see some conflicting opinions on this. I wonder if I should have just tried the kibble plus raw. 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

ShermanK's picture

Ok wow

The actual frozen raw u are referring to actually has very low protein level so I guess that isn't a concern. I'm surprised. 14% I wonder how that is possible if its mostly meat... 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

Protein Levels - Raw vs Processed

A pet food label must state guarantees for the minimum percentages of crude protein and crude fat, as well as the maximum percentages of crude fiber and moisture. The "crude" term refers to the specific method of testing the product, not to the quality of the nutrient itself.
Guarantees are declared on an "as fed" or "as is" basis, that is, the amounts present in the product as it is found in the can or bag. This doesn't have much bearing when the guarantees of two products of similar moisture content are compared (for example, a dry dog food versus another dry dog food). However, when comparing the guaranteed analyses between dry and moist (raw/canned) products, one will note that the levels of crude protein and most other nutrients are much lower for the moist product.

This can be explained by looking at the relative moisture contents. Moist foods typically contain 65-78% moisture, whereas dry foods contain only 10-12% water. To make meaningful comparisons of nutrient levels between a moist and dry product, they should be expressed on the same moisture basis.

The most accurate means of doing this is to convert the guarantees for both products to a dry matter basis. The percentage of dry matter of the product is equal to 100% minus the percentage of moisture guaranteed on the label. A dry food is approximately 88-90% dry matter, while a moist food is only about 22-25% dry matter. To convert a nutrient guarantee to a dry matter basis, the percent guarantee should be divided by the percentage of the dry matter then multiplied by 100.

For example, a moist food guarantees 12% crude protein and 75% moisture (or 25% dry matter), while a dry food contains 27% crude protein and 10% moisture (or 90% dry matter). Which has more protein, the dry or moist? Calculating the dry matter protein of both, the moist contains 32% crude protein on a dry matter basis (12/25 X 100 = 48), while the dry has only 30% on a dry matter basis (27/90 X 100 = 30). Thus, although it looks like the dry has a lot more protein, when the water is removed; the moist food actually has a little more protein.
An easier way is to remember this is that the amount of dry matter in the dry food is about three to four times the amount of dry matter in a moist product. To quickly compare guarantees between a dry and moist food, multiply the guarantees for the moist food by three to four times.

ShermanK's picture

So raw is actually very high then?

I'm confused honestly. Why is it ok to do that? Different type of protein?

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

natures variety - my experience

Gracie had the same issues - itchy all the time. I switched her to natures variety limited ingredient lamb kibble. I cannot afford to give her raw so I thought this would be the closest thing. It's still expensive but not as expensive as raw. She is doing amazing. so she eats no grain at all and it completely worked. She was originally on the chicken and was still having issues with being itchy. so I decided to go with a limited ingredient food. This was her 4th dog food. I think it takes time to figure out what works and what doesn't. But I think the least amount of ingredients is best especially for bulldogs. hope this helps!

ShermanK's picture

Thank you

I just got Sherman the turkey limited ingredient. Actually just posted about it. Well see. Still confused about protein levels tho. Deb post how to figure out raw level and it looks like it makes them be super high. So now I don't understand why that's ok. (Scratching head) either way I did just buy him natures variety frozen raw because I'm willing to try it but im waiting and letting him eat this kibble first. I want to understand why such a high protein can be ok before I start doing that. 

__________________

-Sherm was here. 

Deb and MacKenzie and Ester's picture

It's not high ..

Primal Raw Mix

Crude Protein (min) 15%
Crude Fat (min) 12%
Crude Fiber (max) 1%
Moisture (max) 67%

ShermanK's picture

This is from ur article

For example, a moist food guarantees 12% crude protein and 75% moisture (or 25% dry matter), while a dry food contains 27% crude protein and 10% moisture (or 90% dry matter). Which has more protein, the dry or moist? Calculating the dry matter protein of both, the moist contains 32% crude protein on a dry matter basis (12/25 X 100 = 48), while the dry has only 30% on a dry matter basis (27/90 X 100 = 30). Thus, although it looks like the dry has a lot more protein, when the water is removed; the moist food actually has a little more protein.An easier way is to remember this is that the amount of dry matter in the dry food is about three to four times the amount of dry matter in a moist product. To quickly compare guarantees between a dry and moist food, multiply the guarantees for the moist food by three to four times.so wouldn't that make that 15% about 45%? Still a little lost. 

__________________

-Sherm was here.