Sherman has a hypo plastic Trachea
Submitted by ShermanK on February 22, 2013 - 8:47pmThis is what the vet told me after a chest x ray today. She made it sound very grim and I'm pretty sad for him. Does anyone else have this issue? Is there any chance of it growing bigger since he's still young? Is his life going to be one big torture? I just want honest answers no sugar coating. I'd never get rid of him or anything like that but I really do want to know what I'm in for and what to expect for Sherman's life. Thanks for any input in advance.
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-Sherm was here.
First off couple of things
I would get a digital copy of your xray and get another opinion or have another vet take another xray. With something as serious as this I would never take the work of just one vet. I've heard of some horror stores even one about my vet misdiagnosing something severe from an xray and he was wrong.
Have you talked to your breeder? If not they need to know this if this is the case. IMO anyone breeding now days should be having trach xrays done and submitted to OFA for review and they should be normals before breeding. So your breeder needs to know.
Do you have any health guarantees in your puppy contract with your breeder.
I would also have him checked by another vet for pneumonia.
I have no personal experience with this, but I have heard that the trach can grow as they get older, I don't know if there is any truth to that. I have also heard that inflamation can cause the trach xrays to be a little off, also I don't know how true this is.
Also did the vet show you where the narrowing is on the xray?
Here's some info I found online>>
In this congenital condition (ie dogs are born with it), there is abnormal growth of the rings of cartilage that make up the trachea, resulting in a narrowed airway. Hypoplastic trachea is seen most often in young brachycephalic dogs, and can occur as one component of brachycephalic syndrome. The condition may also occur at the same time as heart abnormalities. Brachycephalics are those breeds which have a comparatively short head.
The degree of tracheal narrowing ranges from mild to severe, as does the severity of clinical signs. Some dogs with this condition appear to outgrow it.
It is wise to maintain your dog at a healthy weight, as being overweight will worsen any respiratory difficulties. There may be occasional need for broncho-dilator therapy and antibiotics to treat an infection.
Thank you
Yes I will be telling the breeder they will hear about it. They however will not be doing much for me because he already has sent me 1200 bucks back and will be sending more soon which will be the cost of the dog at the end. (Distichiasis cryotherapy next Thursday as well as possible second treatment) yes the vet brought me in the back and bowed it to me. She said the sad part of this condition is that there is no treatment to fix it yet. She also told me all those things about weight and heat in the summer and it just sounds like his life is about to be pathetic. She did give me an antibiotic although she said she doesn't see any infection but said it couldn't hurt I wanted to have him take that too and see if he clears up any.
-Sherm was here.
Don't lose hope
Let him grow. He does not have to have a pathetic life. He just is a little more delicate then some. If you search the forum you will likely come up with old posts about this diagnosis.
How serious is the narrowing and where is it located?
I would definitely find a good bulldog vet and...
get a second opinion. There is a listing of recommended vets by state on the home page and others can recommend if you tell us what city you are near. Some of the things these vets have told you just don't make sense to me, for instance, you can't check the palate without sedating them and also I have never heard of worms causing congestion. I took our boy Oscar to the vet when we first got him and he told me he had an extremely narrow trachea and would have problems. Later on he had an xray done for somethng and the trachea looked totally normal. Sending good thoughts for your boy, hope this is all just the result of a not very good vet.
Ok here is my true feelings
I believe that even if he does have small trachea that is not what is going on totally. I believe all this an allergy issue. But I am not a vet and I can't say that but my instincts tell me it is. He licks his paws lately. He licks my face or any other thing he licks excessively. Sometimes he looks a little too pink in the face. He gets this congestion after eating and it stays for a while. (Never has it when he wakes up really) and he has been scratching more. Also his nose is dry all the time. And not to mention he has already gotten hives 2 times which tells me he obviously has some sensitive allergies from some stuff. And anyone paying attention to my stuff knows that I have been switching foods. Well now he is totally on the merrick lamb and rice and these things have all seemed just a little bit worse than before gradually getting worse as I was switching which is frustrating in itself. And I actually left out that he has been shedding a bit and looking dryer. What I'm saying is basically.. I'm no vet but why is he all th sudden seriously sounding congested so much worse over the past week? I doubt he's outgrown his trachea that fast.
-Sherm was here.
Palate Check
Actually a puppy this young can at times have the palete checked, because there is less fatty tissue in the throat area and they are easier to look down their throat then an older dog. When Kohl was a puppy you could actually see a nice big hole down into his throat when he was looking up at you and panting. All my vet had to do was shine his little light in there. Some vets are familiar enough with just the feel of the throat they can tell if the palate is full. But as Kathy said to truly know how long the palate is you have to have them out and I would suspect they put a scope down there.
I've heard of dogs vomiting worms if they were full of them....yuck :(
No I agree
As Kathy said is what I've heard is usually that they have to be under to really check. The guy doc who looked yesterday only said from what he could see it looks about right but I don't think he meant that as a done deal or anything nut he is known for his Boston terrier foundations or something and I think pugs too or something but not sure if he's a bulldog expert. But he did pry him open real quick I was surprised how he got Sherm to let him do that. Lol. And the worm thing.. I've been reading and its not completely ridiculous but doubtful. Another vet actually recommended I ask to do a fecal exam just because he said it is possible but again not a promise.
-Sherm was here.
Good story about Oscar
this is not the first time I have heard that a puppy diagnosed with a narrow trach has grown up just fine.
My vet told me Kohl had an enlarged heart, I had a trach xray done on him. Year later different vet said no such thing, didn't buy it...that his heart looked perfectly normal, sounded normal, no problems. Go figure.
Well
I'm the type who likes to think the worst just so I'm not disappointed when things don't go the way I want. But, that really makes me feel better when I've seen a few comments like the one you just wrote about them growing into it or just the diagnosis being wrong because I really hope for Sherman's sake he ends up ok. I don't want to have a dog that is suffering so bad in a couple years that I have to put him down just to save him from misery. The thought makes me sick and depressed. And the thought of a dog being forced to live that is suffering horribly is sick too. I don't even want to think about either.
-Sherm was here.
I will add
Definitely in the process of making sure I find a good bulldog vet
-Sherm was here.
I mean
Finding. I wish I could make vets lol I would make them cheaper
-Sherm was here.
Well
She pointed out that it is pretty small kind of up near where the jaw is I guess. I honestly can't say I just was taken to the back to see the x ray. It was up pretty high where u see it get narrow looking.
-Sherm was here.
I'm not
Even if I have to carry a fan around and a cooler I will he's my buddy and he's a good boy. But this sound he is making is killing me and it actually makes me clear my own throat.
-Sherm was here.
Also ... I have seen pneumonia
misdiagnosed so don't be afraid to follow-up after the antibiotics if he still sounds bad, sometimes it is just missed.
The
Antibiotic was given to me is clindamycin. Just to add some info. Twice a day for 14 days.
-Sherm was here.
I'm hoping
That he has an infection which sounds wrong but if he does then it will hopefully clear up. Cause if I'm right and this is an allergy thing I can already see that it could be nearly anything in the world and that just really sucks to try to find.. I am a smoker but no longer smoke in the house but if u think about it even the smoke that gets on my clothes or my hands could be bothering him.. And that's just on thing.. Detergent..food..the cat hair.. Mold... Plants on the porch.. Man, this is frustrating cause I just want to see him having fun. Enough with the suffering. Poor dude already has to get his eyes operated on. That was a discomfort he had to go thru too until they did the temporary plucking to make sure that was what was bothering him. In that case I went to an optimologist and then got a second opinion like u said and was glad I did. First dude wanted to give him an entropian surgery to fix distichiasis. Wtf. You wanna know why? Because I called anonymously and asked if they did cryotherapy and they don't. Probably doesnt have the license or equipment. And that's fine. But you should send me elsewhere. I was a bit pissed about that.
-Sherm was here.
I may be
A new dog owner but I also think mechanically and I had to call "BS" one time already. He actually tried to tell me that the distichiasis was present but wasn't what he believed was causing the discomfort. Then told me "here.. Go get these 50 dollar eye drops he probably has dry eye" Huh? If you had 50 lashes growing directly into your eyes do you think it might be a little irritating just maybe? Lol smh. Then I take him to northstar vets who are rated very good and they said his tears were fine and plucked all the lashes and said let us know how he is the next couple days. Perfect. So now he has an appointment for the surgery. I'm just letting you guys in on my actual experiences over here. Lol. Not just buying him hoodies and taking pics in real life. Lol.
-Sherm was here.
Glad you took
my advice and asked about both and went to the specialist. The distichia sugery is far less invasive then entropina surgery and I've seen entropian surgery go bad and the eyes looked horrible afterwards. But if thaye are really overdone then entropian surgery may be necessary because it can cuse severe discomfort and eye ulcers if untreated. But no need to worry about that now.
Actually worms if they are full of them can cause discomfort. He should have been rid of the worms long before you got him from thye breeder.
There is a very simple test for dry eye, which I'm assuming the specialist did to rule that out.
He could be irritated from the smoke in the house, if you smoked in the house prior to getting him. I would highly recommend if that is the case that you start cleaning everything and painting.
What concerns me is usually allergies do not show up on puppies this young.
Lamb can be a very rich and hot meat source. If his licking and such is worses since you have switched him I would try something else. I'm going to recommend something that is duck based. Try to fine a food that has 1 protein source and grain free. If he were mine I would immediately put him on a prepackaged raw food like Natures Variety, Primal, Bravo. And I wouldn't bother adjusting him over time...I would just do the switch. You may have to deal with diarreah, but put him on some canned pumkin (not pie filling) .
I'll relate a story of my girl Cloe, who I gave to my sister after I had to spay her and stop showing her becasue of health reason. She pukes everytime she runs after the ball and stops to pick it up. Once my sister put her onto Natures Variety raw, she rarely upchucks if ever. She has some allergies, my sister had her tested and the protein source of the kibble she was feeding she was allergic to. She had the same problems, feet licking, lots of shedding, ichy, etc. I had her from 11 weeks and she never had any problems until she got around 2 yrs. So the raw diet realy works for her.
I never had allergy issues with my 3 here. I primarily switched to raw becaue I know what is going into my dogs. Everything I buy is organic, non steriods, antibiotics meats, poultry, wild meats ie elk and venison. I love feeding raw and will never go back to kibble.
BTW -- Where do you live?
That seems to be the thing I hear
Is that allergies shouldn't usually be going on this young. And you may be referring to another user cause I never actually talked about the eye stuff on here yet until today. This was a few weeks back I was going through that and I just joined here but yea he wanted to do an entropian surgery to make the angle the lashes lay against the eye nicer but to me that was ridiculous when just a google search will tell you they can just freeze them or laser them.. The only thing that really makes all this difficult as to allergies or not is that even when I read up on symptoms of worms a lot of them are the same as allergies. Shedding, caughing, etc.. And even just the licking thing I see can be from the dog just feeling pain or discomfort somewhere else and just licking out of I gues frustration or something idunno. Thats tough when so many different things have the same textbook symptoms. grr.. But that is what I was actually thinking as far as a food switch and wasn't sure what to do if I must try again.. If its allergies and stuff and I switch again I'm just gonna switch. No point waiting 5 days I guess other than the diarhea hopefully because it will take forever to get to the bottom of it I guess huh? I mean i know its reccomended to swich gradual but i wonder when it comes to an allergy thing.. like, why make the dog suffer just switch i guess.. idunno. Anyway, Here's something interesting... As we speak Sherman is over here breathing perfectly quiet no gargling at all even tho he has been doing it for the last couple hours. It's insane trying to figure what's going on sometimes. He's down there playing sounding like he has no issues at all for no reason all the sudden.
-Sherm was here.
Seriously
Why is he all the sudden clear and normal again? I know those antibiotics couldn't have started to work already if it is a respiratory infection thing right? One dose.. Dogs starts clearing up.. I doubt it.. Sheesh.
-Sherm was here.
If he is relaxed
and quiet then his breathing will be more normal. Once he is up, excited on the go like a puppy does then the inflamation gets worse and mucus builds and he'll get more gurgly. A dog with palate problems will always sound worse when they are excited, angious, panting, the palate can also swell causing the air passage to close.
He does need to have exercise though to help keep any mucus moving.
How old is he? If his breathing is so alarming at this age it would definitely worry me. Have you consulted a different vet about pneumonia? It can so often be missed. They are sure there is no fluid in the lungs, he didn't aspirate?
He's 4 months
And what is confusing is that he actually doesn't get worse when he plays or even ever pant. 1 time I saw him pant when he was going super crazy for a long while with his 1 dog buddy that actually plays nice. I think it is either pneumonia or an infection but I kept bringing that up before and they said no but it sure seems phlegmy. I just think new vet is all I can say right now
-Sherm was here.
And
Allergies too cause paw licking is getting worse
-Sherm was here.
My 2 cents
Wait to have the eye surgery until you resolve some of these other issues as to not over stress his little body. Our Ruby was 6-7 months old when we had her cryoepilation done (and the specialist at UC Davis said it was the 2nd worse case she had ever seen). Just use the drops and possibly some eye ointment (OTC--GenTeal is the brand) to keep him comfortable and free of ulcers until he's treated. And to give you some hope with the eye lashes--our girl only needed one treatment.
Give the course of antibiotics (better safe than sorry) and look into getting him some probiotics (we order from Dr. Mercola's website) to help him with healthy gut flora. And for sure seek out a bulldog specialist...at least while you get these things sorted out and that you can seek help from in the future.
Sherman is a beautiful boy and you are doing a great job! Take some deep breaths. A good rule of thumb is something isn't right if they have no appetitie or if they have no drive to play.
Keep us posted.
Thanks
I think I will do just that. They actually said it is better to wait as long as possible so that they can make sure they are catching as many as possible. And I am about to find a good bulldog vet tomorrow.
-Sherm was here.
Entropian and Distichia
are 2 completely different issues and different surgeries to correct. It could have been another person, wasn't too long ago. It is a common question. I've had experience with both surgeries. Entropian surgery is like an eye lift. Distichia they laser the hair which kills the hair folicle. It usually has to be done a couple of times because they don't always get all the hair folicles in one try.
Licking can be a sign of discomfort. It could be possible that his tummy is upset from the worm medicine and or antibiotics. But feet licking is generally an allergy issue.
Thanks
Yea that's why I didn't see the cutting being necessary when his lids aren't even rolling his regular lashes lay kind of nicely like a persons almost. Just glad I went to someone else that time and probably will be doing again soon with this one it looks like. I may actually go get another food tomorrow too. The dude there actually told me that if it wasn't working just bring it back so I may go grab a small bag and if I see a better result tell him to swap me out which is cool.
-Sherm was here.
I agree the lamb could be a problem...
we use Natural Balance duck potato and it's available at Petco and pet food depots, reasonably priced and our guys are doing great on it. Oscar had horrible allergies and it was the only food he could tolerate.
I may
Just try that food and see if I get rid of some of these symptoms it can't hurt at this point. Appreciate it.
-Sherm was here.
Is the puppy sick?
If the puppy has a respiratory infection at the time of the xray, the cloudiness of the infection can make the trachea appear smaller.
I went through this with one of my puppies several years ago and he was fine.
So, if your puppy is sick, clear of the infection before anymore xrays are taken.
That is the question
Last couple times his temp was normal and they said his lungs and heart sound good. (I asked to check and see if he has pneumonia or bronchitis or something) no dice. They say. But I have an antibiotic from today cause she said it couldn't hurt if they may not be seeing it which they say they dont but who knows so I am going to give it to him and try new food starting tomorrow.
-Sherm was here.
Hmmmm.....
It sounds like your Vet is not familiar with bulldogs. Where do you live? Someone may be able to recommend a good bulldog Vet. The clindamyacin will destroy the good bacteria in the stomach so, you should also give some probiotics or yogurt while on the meds.
A couple of other things you can try is running a hot shower in the bathroom with the door closed and bring sherman in the bathroom and breathe in the steam. The steam will help with congestion. You can also run a vaporizer in the room where he sleeps.
Jacinda - I agree with you
I think there is a possibility he has pneumonia and has been misdiagnosed. I know that it can be missed, I've heard of it numerous times. They take the puppy in several times and finally vet says, oh we have pneumonia. I really hope this puppy gets to a new vet.
Yes, I think it's probably a misdiagnosis as well
nm
ay...sorry to hear about
ay...sorry to hear about shermie...but pls don't take it as all hope is lost...i definitely would get a second or third opinion if need be...but i think i posted this to you a few days ago...make sure the vet has knowledge of bulldogs...,VERY important...there is that possibility he is being misdiagnosed...when i took my archie to to be neutered he lasted 16 hrs...why?b/c although not all brachycephalics react to ACE...his vet "thought he looked" like he could handle it...long stoty short a beautiful 57lb healthy bulldog died in my arms...b/c of a bad judgement call...did i mention his vet is also a professor at a very well known college and teaches veterinary medecin?